Phosphate Haters

Garuf

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30 Oct 2007
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4,957
Location
Leeds.
I found this and it made me think of this discussion.
duty_calls.png
 

ulster exile

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6 Jul 2007
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Birmingham, UK
I think the problem is that places like TFF really help the beginner whereas places like this are for the very advanced planted tank enthusiast. It's difficult when you're not quite the beginner, but far from the standards of some (read most) of the tanks on here and it is hard to find the middle ground and all too easy to repeat what you hear without understanding it.

I could imagine that it must be frustrating to hear the same "myths" being repeated time and again but without the people who frequent this place continuing to frequent the places where beginners start, how are the beginners ever to learn the truth of the matter?
 

Sandra

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Joined
16 Mar 2008
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21
I cant believe it, im a member of tfc and I expressed my annoyance that they are having problems with pages loading, but it is happening constantly now for about 2 weeks. And now theya re having a ago at me.
:arghh:
 

Sandra

New Member
Joined
16 Mar 2008
Messages
21
I know, thats what i have basically told them, that i have gone elsewhere as i am fed up with trying to get on their forum.
And i have moved on now, and i want to do a planted tank next. And i think i will get much better info from you guys. Thanks for listening.
 

ulster exile

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6 Jul 2007
Messages
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Location
Birmingham, UK
Sorry but TFC is a free forum and survives on the goodwill of the site owner plus a few donations now and again - it seems ungrateful to complain about some access issues when it's provided free! It's not like it's a service you've paid for and have a right to complain, nor is it their fault - it's the fault of the servers.

Not wishing to spam this thread as it's clearly a TFC issue so I'll post no more on the subject, other than to say that to slag off a free forum which provides newbies plenty of advice when they're starting out seems unfair.
 

ceg4048

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11 Jul 2007
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Chicago, USA
I agree with Chrisi. We all have the privelege of excercising freedom of choice. There is no point denigrating other forums, otherwise we run the risk of becoming snobs. It would be better to be content to gently steer others our way when the opportunity presents itself regarding planted tanks and respect the choices that other's have made.

Cheers,
 

Sandra

New Member
Joined
16 Mar 2008
Messages
21
ulster exile said:
Sorry but TFC is a free forum and survives on the goodwill of the site owner plus a few donations now and again - it seems ungrateful to complain about some access issues when it's provided free! It's not like it's a service you've paid for and have a right to complain, nor is it their fault - it's the fault of the servers.

Not wishing to spam this thread as it's clearly a TFC issue so I'll post no more on the subject, other than to say that to slag off a free forum which provides newbies plenty of advice when they're starting out seems unfair.


im sorry, didnt realise it was a free forum. And hasnt seen any messages explaining about server problems.
I didnt mean to slag anyone or anything off, and was just expresing my annoyance of the difficulty in getting onto the forum.
I have posted a second message (the first one disappeared) explaining that i was sorry and that i would like this not to carry on.
 

beeky

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Joined
21 Aug 2007
Messages
879
Location
Chippenham, Wiltshire
I find it very strange that there is so much conflicting information about and it's very confusing for people especially when theories and ideas are then reiterated as facts. You can pick up a copy of PFK and read two different views on phosphates/nitrates in one sitting.

I first started doubting the nitrate/phosphate issue a few years ago when I bought a few test kits (out of guilt mostly as all the 'experts' said I needed to test) and found my phosphate was 4+ppm. Nitrate was around 50ppm. I couldn't understand this as by rights I should have been inundated with algae. OK, so the actual values may not be accurate from test kits but if they change colour then they've found something!

It's a bit hypocritical when others point to a lack of scientific proof showing that phosphate doesn't cause algae when the converse is true.
 

plantbrain

Expert
Joined
2 Aug 2007
Messages
1,946
Welcome to my world for the last 15 years :D

Do not become cynical though.
Have mercy and be compassionate to them personally.
Stick to reason and the topic.

Look for solutions that answer the question, not banter and personal attacks.

One thing to also consider, while you know you may never convince them of the reasoning, other folks read the web and read the logic. So your audience is much larger than the two people going at each other.

Yes, there is a lot of hypocritical comments.
The issue with plants and algae in aquariums is not a big issue for folks in the Scientific community ;)
So you are not going to find much there.

You need to know how to use such peer review articles and apply them in support of your observations, test and then see for yourself.

I suggest the Socratic method.
Do not convince me, I merely ask the questions that will lead you down the path that will make you question your own ideas and thoughts.

You ultimately must convince yourself of the logic.
"Belief" is a poor method and I do not suggest folks do that.

As far as research papers, Bachmann's are well known. Very nice guy.

Regarding PMDD: what Paul and Kevin initially went with was a good foundation and approach.
But they did not test the very hypothesis they proposed :!:
So they got nailed.

If you make a hypothesis, it must be tested to see if it's true or not don't you think?
Thus every hypothesis must be "falsifiable".

If you test it and cannot come to any reasonable conclusion, or cannot falsify it, then you tenatively accept it unless you figure out some other way to disprove it.

You keep picking at it again and again.
Leave no stone unturned.

But such approaches do not answer why you get algae, only what it cannot possibly be due to.
Many folks assume testing something will show "cause". This is very difficult, and there be several/many causes and interdependent realtionships(light, CO2 and NH4, O2, fish loading, current etc).

However, we can test one thing at a time easily.
But the folks that ask and demand "proof", research etc, they often do not even have a control for the experiment(what might that be for planted tanks?), to work from, very poor testing skills, no clue how to set up the test to answer the question to begin with.

All basic stuff to go forth and ask and learn about the issue.

I spent a lot of time measuring PO4, light, CO2 etc.
I got good at it.

Still, even folks with little test skills, knowledge about all the baloney, can still grow plant well by looking at the plants and adding ferts.

Just good observation alone and that's my personal background prior to all this.
Ironic really.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
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