Plant Deficiencies and Phosphate deficiency?

Plants101

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18 Jan 2019
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Hi UKAPS,

I really need your help to diagnose these plant deficiencies. I have some plants growing outdoors in direct sunlight. I use pressurized CO2 and EI dosing.

Here’s what I dose every week:

Sunday:
1.5ppm Ca
0.3ppm Mg
11ppm NO3
9ppm K (both from KNO3 and KH2PO4)
5ppm PO4

Monday:
0.37ppm Fe from Plantex CSM+B
0.28ppm Fe From DTPA 11%
11ppm NO3
7ppm K

Tuesday:
11ppm NO3
9ppm K (both from KNO3 and KH2PO4)
5ppm PO4

Wednesday:
0.37ppm Fe from Plantex CSM+B
0.28ppm Fe From DTPA 11%
11ppm NO3
7ppm K

Thursday:
11ppm NO3
9ppm K (both from KNO3 and KH2PO4)
5ppm PO4

Friday:
0.37ppm Fe from Plantex CSM+B
0.28ppm Fe From DTPA 11%
11ppm NO3
7ppm K

Saturday: 75% water change

I dose KNO3 everyday because if I don’t, I start getting stunting and the dying of lower leaves.

I’m wondering as well if I have a micro nutrient toxicity since I dose a lot of iron. However, new growth on all my plants looks fantastic, but it’s the older growth that is suffering. Some of the older growth even has GSA, but I’m hesitant to up the phosphate dosing from 5ppm 3x a week. I can’t increase CO2 higher as it would Then cause the fish to suffocate. As it is, I have the level on a borderline between what would make the fish gasp at the surface and what makes the fish not that stressed. I have no other algae besides GSA even in full sunlight.

B6052019-0216-4291-B3C4-AA76BA7BE5DA.jpeg


Here is a lower leaf of ludwigia Rubin. All the lower leaves start to get these little patches forming in them, and they are translucent and delicate like tissue paper while the rest of the leaf is robust. This is especially an issue of my rotala.

1670F989-433D-4067-B697-21CA92EF877E.jpeg


This is a lower leaf of ludwigia arcuata. It has some holes in it, but that’s because the snails munch the parts that turn translucent.

06E71AAF-9B55-4488-8F82-951F0DF7A592.jpeg


Here’s another horrible looking leaf of ludwigia. The holes are from snails munching on it, but the edges almost started to disintegrate.

Note: I’ve only showed Ludwigia leaves since they are large enough for my phone to focus on. I tried doing the same with rotala leaves but the camera wouldn’t cooperate.

@ceg4048 I’ve seen a lot of your posts and advice and it’s helped me a lot in the past. Any insight you have into this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all in advance
 

Plants101

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Good point

CO2 is diffused via ceramic diffuser and these mcirobubbles are fed into one powerful 1000gph pump that is more than strong enough to create a strong current from one end of the tank to the other. The bubbles are pulverized so that I can only see a very fine mist or even nothing at some times. Bubble count is higher than I can count.

Is there a better way to diffuse CO2 across such a large tank? The tank is 10 feet long and 3 feet wide. Right now, the current is very strong and will nearly destroy the plants if I put it any higher.

The weird thing is that these issues are only appearing recently. I've had 0 algae (no GSA even) and no deficiencies until now. My CO2 is consistently replaced and the tank is full. That's why I'm wondering if I'm getting a nutrient toxicity due to the high amount of nutrients I dose.
 

Edvet

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Are you doing waterchanges ( when, how big)
Could you do a pH profile?
Could you put up some shadecloth to decrease light levels?
( i don''t expect toxicity)
 

Plants101

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Are you doing waterchanges ( when, how big)
Could you do a pH profile?
Could you put up some shadecloth to decrease light levels?
( i don''t expect toxicity)
I do 75% water changes once a week.

Not sure what the pH is, I'll have to get some pH tests.

I do currently have a shadecloth over it (50% shade cloth covering the entire tank) and it's been there since the tank was set up.

My main concern is the faded patches on the lower leaves. I have no ideas what causes them. I thought that CO2 deficiencies only appeared in the new growth (AKA stunting, twisted leaves, etc), but please correct me if I'm wrong about that
 

Zeus.

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So 10 foot tank 3 foot wide say 2 foot deep so about 1600Litres dependant on the depth OFC

1000gph pump
so about 4500/5000LPH form the pump what about the filter ?

But with the mega light if the sun is out a x10 tank size to output ratio would be a minimum on a sunny day IMO so target 16000LPH

So my initial thoughts are Flow/tank turnover is insufficient to match the CO2 requirements of the plants when the sun is blasting down is some areas of the tank which is accountable for in your comments

new growth on all my plants looks fantastic, but it’s the older growth that is suffering
So the older lower areas are suffering poor levels of CO2 due to poor flow and the sun is photon blasting them and carbon (CO2) is deficient and pin holes and melting follow.

If it was another nutrient we wouldn't see new growth looking fantastic.
 

Plants101

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Location
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So 10 foot tank 3 foot wide say 2 foot deep so about 1600Litres dependant on the depth OFC



so about 4500/5000LPH form the pump what about the filter ?

But with the mega light if the sun is out a x10 tank size to output ratio would be a minimum on a sunny day IMO so target 16000LPH

So my initial thoughts are Flow/tank turnover is insufficient to match the CO2 requirements of the plants when the sun is blasting down is some areas of the tank which is accountable for in your comments



So the older lower areas are suffering poor levels of CO2 due to poor flow and the sun is photon blasting them and carbon (CO2) is deficient and pin holes and melting follow.

If it was another nutrient we wouldn't see new growth looking fantastic.
Depth is 12" probably making the issue worse since the light is so much stronger. The approximate volume of this tank is 220 gallons or 833 liters.

I have 3 canister filters with 3 media baskets each, turning over 1000L/hour each, so I get 3000L/hour turnover out of all of them combined.

How should I better the CO2 flow and dissolution?

Do you know why i'm only experiencing issues now as compared to earlier when the growth was great from top to bottom? No factors have changed including amount of CO2, how I diffuse CO2, and the amount of nutrients I dose. The only thing I can remember changing before everything went downhill was doing a big trim on the tank. I've done that size trim before, but it seems like it was that one where the plants went downhill.
 

Zeus.

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No factors have changed
:eek: close to the longest day of the year sun reaching highest and strongest point !!! how long is your CO2 period ? how do you match your CO2 input for the demands of the plants due the varying light intensity's from cloudy to sunny days. I would say every day is challenge for your plants and CO2 levels will be fluctuating hence the pin holes and melting in areas of poor flow
 

Plants101

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Ah yes, you are right. The photoperiod does change. I constantly shift the timer to turn the CO2 on an hour before sunrise and turn off an hour before sunset. I keep my CO2 levels accustomed for sunny days and if it's a cloudy day, there is probably just more CO2 in the water than on a sunny day.

Now that I think about it, it also might be the fluctuating levels since I've had a lot of days where it is cloudy in the morning and then sunny in the afternoons whereas previously, I had sunny days from morning to evening.

Do you know anyway to improve the diffusion of CO2 in this large of a tank? What do you think about an inline diffuser?
 

Zeus.

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How should I better the CO2 flow and dissolution?
Spray bars all the length on one side IMO.

Do you know anyway to improve the diffusion of CO2 in this large of a tank?
CO2 reactor should improve it but I dont think thats the issue.

I think its fluctuating CO2 levels and insufficient tank turnover. Plus a massive photo period of varying intensity to boot :eek:

A pH controller would help control the [CO2] so it would be on more on sunny days and less on cloudy days which would help OFC.

some of Clives quotes on the topic

What I mean is that if you are struggling with CO2 stability, or are having difficulty keeping high concentrations, then it's best to focus efforts on the first half of the photoperiod and not worry so much about the second half. If you are running very strong lighting then you are really pushing the plants and it's necessary to have the CO2 going. After 4 hours, if you turn the gas off, the water stays saturated for a couple of hours after the valve closes and the concentration trails off. So if you have an 8 hour photoperiod and you turn the gas on 2 hours before lights on, you can turn the gas off after 6 hours. So the gas is still running for 8 hours but it's on-off cycle is offset by the amount of time you turn it on prior to lights on.

There is no need to run the gas for 10 hours therefore.

Plants don't really run their photosynthetic machinery for the full day anyway. Under normal conditions, after 4 hours or so they start to shut down, so that's why CO2 isn't really needed for the full photoperiod.

Long photoperiods benefit algae more than they do plants, especially if it is high intensity.
The long photoperiod is more or less for our enjoyment.
The main problem discussing and experimenting with LCO2 is that of our collective ignorance. We really do not understand the How and the Why of it's mechanism. We have a fairly well grounded, basic understanding of the photosynthetic processes.
A. We understand that Rubisco's job is to capture CO2 molecules and to deliver the molecules to the Calvin Cycle reaction centers. We know that Rubisco is hugely expensive and consumes a lot of resources to produce and to maintain. In low tech tanks, where the CO2 concentration is low there is a much higher density of Rubisco in the leaf because you need more of the protein to capture the small amounts of CO2. In gas injected tanks, the Rubisco density in the leaf is lower.

B. We also know that during Calvin Cycle, the fixing of Carbon involves some intermediate carbohydrate products until the final product is a type of glucose.

So, for item A. we know that when the plant senses that high concentrations of CO2 is available, it responds by reducing the production of expensive Rubisco. When it senses a lower CO2 concentration it must increase Rubisco production, however because this protein is so complicated and heavy, the increased production requires 2-3 weeks in order to change the density in the leaf to match the new gas concentration level. So it is much easier to reduce production than it is to increase production. When increasing gas injection therefore, it hardly takes any time to see an improvement in health. When lowering the concentration, the plant will suffer because it must now ramp up Rubisco production to account for the loss of CO2 availability.

When increasing the light, the plant must reallocate resources from Rubisco production/maintenance in order to deal with the increased radiation. This may entail new pigment production for protection. When the light is reduced, the plant then reallocates the light gathering proteins and can devote them to Rubisco production/maintenance.

So when we mess around with light and gas, we have some degree of predictability.
Not sure what to advise except grow them emerged under a glass lid like Tropica do, then you get 400ppm CO2 free and stable so Rubisco production is stable and water flow is irreverent as no water and CO2 travels 10,000 times faster in air
 

rebel

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Just put a shade cloth to remove 20% light. Would cure your issues.
 

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