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Plants a little tired looking

•Cai•

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2015
Messages
218
Location
Hartlepool
Hi all,
I'm currently running my first real planted tank and have stated to struggle a little lately.
My plants have started to look a bit jaded. Here are some pics:
836F41D6-DA81-42E5-8C04-34B96AB6C49B_zpsdqs4pghv.jpg
A1AD08F8-763D-4931-A086-6B19D9473088_zpsghzkqsq7.jpgE2F9197D-C082-4872-9035-A7934E1AF2B0_zpsmexsiriq.jpg7251EA7C-B65C-405E-8280-DA7F35110B0D_zps83i0fdcj.jpg
•My tank has been running now for approx 6-7weeks.
•I inject co2 using regulator and inline reactor. Ph goes to around 6.9/7.0 from 7.4/7.5 over a 6hour injection period
• I have a 24w full spectrum led on for 6hours also.
•I dose ei ferts- until recently. I've cut out micro mix due to having a lot of traces within tap that I was advised I was risking/causing toxicity to plants doing so
I now dose a iron mix from nutrient company once a week to get 1ppm of iron I think it is. Been doing this for nearly 2weeks and no change to plants health for the better
•I change 25% of water on a Wednesday and a 50/60% one on a Sunday when there's no ferts added.
•my flow is high and causes plants to move around within tank using a fluval 305 canister with a lilly pipe at surface. (Tempted to try a spray bar to see if this might help plants any better)

My plants prior to cutting micro mix where the same as now really. I believed it was a lack of iron causing plants to be way they are so upped on that and cut micro for reasons above. I was basically told I was causing toxicity to my plants.
My HC has started to now go yellow in places and odd spot of brown too. Wondering if this is due to the iron dosing.
I'm just at a bit of a loose end with ways to improve health. It's all looking a little tired and is on decline.
I have livestock within tank so can't really move co2 up much more than already being injected.
Here is my ei ferts added during a weekly dosing and my water parameters if it's any help:

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Like I say I've cut my micros out at minute but seeing no improvement.
I'm in need of some consensus on what's going on.
Should I stop all dosing to see a change?
 
Hi cai, I personally wouldn't stop all dosing, plants need food to grow, from your symptoms it does sound like more co2 is needed, if this can't be added decreasing the intensity of the lights either by dimming, raising the fixture if possible or covering some of the light source can help lower the plants demand for co2.
 
Hi all,
Your water is really hard (25 dGH), and you also have both magnesium and calcium hardness, which is unusual for most of the UK (<"Magnesian limestone aquifer">). I'd assume looking at the pictures it is the new leaves of the plants that are small and yellow (meaning it is a non-motile element in the plant).

I'd carry on with the iron (Fe) dosing. Because iron isn't mobile within the plant, the leaves that formed when iron was deficient won't green up, but any newer leaves should be greener. If you don't see any difference it might be worth looking at an iron chelator which is better in harder water.

cheers Darrel
 
Thanks chaps. I think il do both of those things. I've changed from a lolly pipe to a spray bar also to see if this may help flow distribution slightly. Plants are defo struggling. Glassy leaves HC is starting to look like it's going slightly brown to the eye but every photo I take doesn't show this. If I decrease the lights though, will this affect the HC even more? They like high light don't they?
If I was to change to RO water now would you do it gradually With every water change or just persevere with what I've got now it's set up.
 
What iron Chelate would you reccommend @dw1305 I don't mind paying more for a superior brand or type. I want my plants happy
 
340AA3EB-A37C-4C3A-A177-794807537354_zpswzbghslz.jpg
This is the iron I'm dosing at minute. Should I re-apply my micros as normal too or leave it out?
 
Also, I've been doing some reading on here, will the fact I have activated carbon/zeolite in my filter be affecting plants absorption of my iron etc? Or is it very minimal. Opinion on thread I read was minimal but I know how opinions and evidence change on a week to week basis and the mentioned thread was over a year ago.
 
Hi all,
This is the iron I'm dosing at minute
Probably not the iron then. FeDTPA is better than FeEDTA in alkaline water, but is inactivated above about pH8, details are here: <"FeDTPA">.

There are chelators which are more effective at very high pH, <"Fe EDDHA" & "Fe HBED">, but my suspicion would be that it isn't an iron problem.
will the fact I have activated carbon/zeolite in my filter be affecting plants absorption of my iron etc?
Depends on the zeolite and how often you change the <"charcoal">.

I'm not a great fan of chemical media, and I like some "tint" in the water (I keep soft water fish). Any product that works via "cation exchange" is likely to bind some ferric iron ions (Fe+++), because ions with a high valency are more strongly bound.

I've never had very hard water (I've always been a rain-water user) or used EI/CO2 and I've not really got anything else to offer, other than it might be worth looking on some of the USA planted tank forums. A lot of members there (in the mid-west, Texas etc.) will have very hard water, with high levels of both calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg).

cheers Darrel
 
some of my plants are light with darker veins which suggest magnesium but surely I have that in abundance in tap water. If I use dechlorinator will this affect that? It also says if I'm low in magnesium then iron won't be able to be used. I know it's a long shot but what do you think? I've edged co2 up a little too so I will keep an eye on it.
 
Hi all,
If I use dechlorinator will this affect that?
The dechlorinator doesn't have any effect.
I've edged co2 up a little too so I will keep an eye on it.
If you have a floating plant and that shows the same effects?, you can discount CO2. That was why I choose a floater for the <"Duckweed Index">.

I've never had much joy with trying to diagnose deficiency/toxicity effects, if you discount carbon (C) deficiencies are most likely to be N, K, P, Mg and Fe (in that order), and you seem to have all of those covered.

I'm pretty sure it isn't magnesium (Mg) deficiency, you have a huge amount in your water, it is mobile within the plant and would effect older leaves.

Boron (B) toxicity is a possibility, but unlikely in hard water.

Have a look at this as an over-view of plant nutrients and their interactions <"Micro-elements in Agriculture">.

cheers Darrel
 
I think I'm going to change back to my inline atomiser as the reactor I have doesn't seem to doing much difference in regards to microbubbles. Plants seemed to pearl a lot more with it any way. I've turned co2 up some. Spray bar is gently moving surface and pushing water around in a "washer-machine" motion. I suppose I've just got to persevere with things and learn as it happens. Shame I can't pinpoint root cause though. It's funny as the crypts I have in there are still very healthy looking. My lutea hobbit is even gaining it's purple leaves so I'm doing something right with those atleast. Everything is growing and sending out new shoots freely.
RO water unit is looking the more likely I think though.
How do you go about storing and filtering your rainwater Darrel?
 
Before you added livestock,you were getting the ph down to 6.3(if i remember rightly)and it looked like your tank was "taking off"
Now you're only getting the ph down to 7 and you're getting problems.
I would try to recreate those conditions.
 
Ye that's the problem John. It took an incredible amount of co2 to get to that stage. Now I've livestock added I'm limited to how much I can dial in. I'm still getting a yellow drop checker a few hours into lighting period. My water is just buffering the hell out of co2.
 
Plus the leaves on certain plants are showing a sign of some sort of deficiency. You may well be right about co2 being too low however. With the leaves losing their colour and going glassy I'm making the assumption it's nutrients based but I'm an amateur after all.
 
Ok, I've turned co2 up and getting 6.6/6.7 on ph pen. That's as high as I can go for fish.
I will keep an eye on plants closely next week or so and then go from there. I've changed back from inline rector to atomizer and can visibly see bubbles hitting all plants including HC at front. Fingers crossed plants pick up.
 
So I'm getting a decent drop in co2 now; just short of 1unit drop. Drop checker is yellow and fish are at very edge what they can handle. It's made no difference to plants health at all.
My lighting period is 7hrs as is co2 which is on couple hours prior to lights.
I'm lolling to switch to RO water and see what difference I get from that dosing the same things I am currently. It's a neccesary risk to make I feel. My water isn't the best and I feel something is stopping the ferts I'm adding from getting to plants.
They are just slowly browning. HC is getting bad now. Tennellus had to be removed.
The flow from my spray bar is visibly sending co2 bubbles down to plants and around to back of tank. Ferts I'm adding are to the reccommended doses for ei. I'm completely lost and to be honest with you, fed up!
I knew this would be challenging but now it's just getting irritating.
I went from good growth, decent colourations to a slow and gradual decline in health of plants. Colourations of water is very yellow on changing water day.
I'm hoping that running with ro water, I can manipulate the parameters to what I want and then hoping plants pick up.
 
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