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Problem with my Echinodorus

hypnogogia

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Joined
6 Apr 2017
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Location
Oxfordshire
I have two types echinodorus that seem to be struggling at the moment. See photos below.

In terms of my tanks, I have the following:
240 Ltr tank now running for about 4 years. Filtration is a Oase Biomaster 600 filled with biological medium. Lighting is Juwel LED running at 70% for 7hrs per day. As substrate I’m using JBL Manado with a base layer of laterite. I do dose CO2 and use EI ferts as calculated by the excellent IFC calculator.

I’ve got a bit of BBA and have upped water changes to reduce the organicsmin the tank, as well as improved flow. I’ll hopefully have that under control soon.

I’m wondering if it’s some form of deficiency, despite EI as the reproduction of my Limnobium has also slowed. All other plants are Infineon and growing.
 

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I have two types echinodorus that seem to be struggling at the moment. See photos below.

In terms of my tanks, I have the following:
240 Ltr tank now running for about 4 years. Filtration is a Oase Biomaster 600 filled with biological medium. Lighting is Juwel LED running at 70% for 7hrs per day. As substrate I’m using JBL Manado with a base layer of laterite. I do dose CO2 and use EI ferts as calculated by the excellent IFC calculator.

I’ve got a bit of BBA and have upped water changes to reduce the organicsmin the tank, as well as improved flow. I’ll hopefully have that under control soon.

I’m wondering if it’s some form of deficiency, despite EI as the reproduction of my Limnobium has also slowed. All other plants are Infineon and growing.
Hi @hypnogogia If its been good for a long time, I wonder if the increase in plant mass is stifling the distribution of CO2 and other nutrients? Swords are usually very easy... I am also wondering if they are getting enough Mg and traces (Fe in particular), now that they are (supposedly) much bigger than originally? How does the new growth look? I would cut off those leaves that look bad and beyond rescue immediately, they are just dragging down the rest of the plant and slowing recovery. I do see the BBA on the edges on some of the leaves there... I suspect that might have started around the time the plant started to show signs of deficiency(?).

Cheers,
Michael
 
what are you dosing (in ppm per week and your water change schedule)? and which leaves are affected with these symptoms (new? old?). cheers,
 
If you're dosing full ei then I doubt this will be nutrient related, the all point of ei is to rule out nutrient deficiencies. Are you dosing full ei?
The more likely suspect is going to be lack of co2. It could well be that plant mass has increased over time and is reducing flow to the area where the echinodorus are.

You mention the frogbits growth is slowing, can you see any obvious signs of deficiencies in these? I think a picture of the frogbit would be super helpful, also a full tank shot would be good.

Cheers.
 
Thank you @plantnoobdude and @MichaelJ .

It’s on the older leaves. New leaves look fine as you can probably see on the Ocelot Leopard Green. According to the calculator I dose the following weekly:
NO3 30
PO4 3
K 20.15
Mg 10
Fe 0.5

I change 50% water weekly using rainwater to which I add salty shrimp to bring it up to Kh 3 and GH 6.
 
It’s on the older leaves. New leaves look fine as you can probably see on the Ocelot Leopard Green. According to the calculator I dose the following weekly:
NO3 30
PO4 3
K 20.15
Mg 10
Fe 0.5

I change 50% water weekly using rainwater to which I add salty shrimp to bring it up to Kh 3 and GH 6.
Hi, if new leaves look fine it's not Fe or Mn. I'd suggest a po4 issue maybe raise it to 5-6ppm per week. cheers,
 
Thank you @plantnoobdude and @MichaelJ .

It’s on the older leaves. New leaves look fine as you can probably see on the Ocelot Leopard Green. According to the calculator I dose the following weekly:
NO3 30
PO4 3
K 20.15
Mg 10
Fe 0.5

I change 50% water weekly using rainwater to which I add salty shrimp to bring it up to Kh 3 and GH 6.
Hi @hypnogogia As you said above... EI dosing... This should really be enough of everything. You might want to bump your Fe and PO4 dosing a bit - wont hurt.
I still think this might be a nutrient distribution issue.. In any event, what makes the hobby entertaining is that it is rarely just one single thing that is off...

Cheers,
Michael
 
This should really be enough of everything
I mean, every tank is different. 3ppm po4 per week in my tank and everything starts too rebel. I think I'm dosing something like 7ppm per week now. I'm not saying that plants are using all 7ppm, but with precipitation and uptake considered, 7ppm seems to be a sweet spot for me.
what makes the hobby entertaining is that it is rarely just one single thing that is off...
strongly agree:)
Fe and PO4
I wouldn't suggest changing Fe and Po4 or any two variables at the same time. Fe and po4 more so because they have somewhat of a complicated relationship.
 
I think a picture of the frogbit would be super helpful, also a full tank shot would be good.
Frogbit actually looks healthy, but I’ll take a photo tomorrow. Lights are off now.
I still think this might be a nutrient distribution issue.
I auto dose and it enters the tank right at the filter outlet for distribution. I’ve also got two gyres to support distribution.

I’ll increase the PO4 and see how it goes.
 
In my personal experience (I can't stop buying them) I've found they grow best when several root tabs are placed at their base every few months. The difference for me has been really dramatic, plants went from growing extremely slowly to a new leaf every few days.
 
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I mean, every tank is different. 3ppm po4 per week in my tank and everything starts too rebel. I think I'm dosing something like 7ppm per week now. I'm not saying that plants are using all 7ppm, but with precipitation and uptake considered, 7ppm seems to be a sweet spot for me.
Hi @plantnoobdude I agree. I've been dosing ~10ppm of PO4 and ~1 ppm of Fe in my densely planted tanks for as long as I can remember now :) ... just recently started to dial it down to 5ppm in my shrimp tank, but kept my 1ppm of Fe/wk.
I wouldn't suggest changing Fe and Po4 or any two variables at the same time. Fe and po4 more so because they have somewhat of a complicated relationship.
Thats true... I suggested upping both PO4 and Fe for the same reason, so I think my advice is sound - and what I would do myself in the same situation.

I get the don't change more than one variable at same time... which works well when conducting experiments that require a lot of rigidity in the realm of the natural and physical sciences. However, when it comes to our planted aquariums I have no problem being a bit pragmatic within reason... We are already dealing with many, many variables and conditions beyond our control, many of which we may unknowingly change over the course of time ... we should not attempt to be more precise or "scientific" than the underlying conditions can justify :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
Here are some limnobium and a full tank picture.
 

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Hi all,
I think a picture of the frogbit would be super helpful, also a full tank shot would be good.
That one.
Here are some limnobium and a full tank picture.
Perfect. The Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) doesn't look too bad, possibly the plant image on its own looks like it might be suffering / have suffered from iron (Fe) and / or magnesium (Mg) deficiency. You can see a definite <"net like pattern of darker veins and lighter lamina">. Have a look at <"Frogbit taken a turn"> and <"Micronutrient toxicity.......">.

The full tank shot of the bleheri type Echinodorus looks like grazing damage by a plec, even Hypancistrus do it, but the usual culprit is an Ancistrus?

cheers Darrel
 
The full tank shot of the bleheri type Echinodorus looks like grazing damage by a plec, even Hypancistrus do it, but the usual culprit is an Ancistrus?
There is an ancistrus. If you look carefully on the full tank shot you can see the orange one at the front. What about the edges of the leopard green? That doesn’t look like ancistrus to me.

I hadn’t used Mg for a while but have reintroduced it, so that explain the limnobium.
 
Hi all,
I hadn’t used Mg for a while but have reintroduced it, so that explain the limnobium.
Magnesium (Mg) is mobile in the plant, so it can be shuffled <"between old and new leaves">. Assuming the new leaves are OK once expanded? I'd probably keep on dosing the magnesium.
There is an ancistrus...........What about the edges of the leopard green? That doesn’t look like ancistrus to me.
No, I think they really like E. bleheri.

I'm not sure about the Echinodorus "Ozelot Leopard Green" hopefully it will perk up again with added magnesium. If the Frogbit carries on looking healthier I'd probably take the older damaged leaves off of the Echinodorus.

cheers Darrel
 
Here are some limnobium and a full tank picture.
This is why the "duckweed" index is brilliant; Those frogbit looks like they are suffering from deficiency issues. If your dosing full EI and have no Mg, Fe or other micro deficiencies they should look like this picture below - not perfect, but certainly very healthy - this is with full EI and 10ppm of PO4, 10 ppm Mg, 1 ppm of Fe/wk with lights (at low intensity) on for 12 hours/day, moderately soft water.
I sort of doubt @hypnogogia's situation is Mg deficiency given the 10 ppm/wk - but it might be worth upping that as well for a while. I would definitely up the Fe to 1 ppm/wk and increase PO4 which seems a little low as @plantnoobdude pointed out. Now that I see the picture, I still think those densely packed swords may suffer from lack of nutrient distribution - i.e. around the root system / crown. Perhaps put in a small circulation pump to create some flow in and around the plant. I just did that a couple of months ago myself as I was starting to see tiny signs of deficiencies especially around my densely packed crypts but I also think it benefitted my swords. But first and foremost you should prune all those incurable leaves from those swords - that will likely boost the nutrient distribution as well and speed up recovery.

Sword plants can never get enough Iron Glutamate.
I suppose you mean Iron Gluconate (Seachem Flourish Iron).... Yes, I usually add 0.25 ppm of Iron Gluconate per week as well (usually mid week, if I remember to do so)... so usually my Fe dosing is more like 1.25 ppm/wk in total. Thanks for pointing that out.


frogbit.jpg


Cheers,
Michael
 
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In my personal experience (I can't stop buying them) I've found they grow best when several root tabs are placed at their base every few months. The difference for me has been really dramatic, plants went from growing extremely slowly to a new leaf every few days.
Hi @shangman, Right on. When I planted my tanks including the swords back in the day I did root tabs as well. If you're not doing enriched substrate (I never did or thought it was worth it in a low-tech tank), I definitely think you can give swords (and other plants) a head start with tabs. Later on, when the tank is established, I think proper column dosing should suffice. But definitely no harm done popping in a few tabs once in a while.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Seems like a good news bad news day @hypnogogia the goods news is the frogbit can be fixed with iron, and the bad news? You have one bad ass Ancistrus.. lol.

On a serious note you really need to remove all those decaying echinodorus leaves and the decaying cryptocoryne leaves, also get rid of anything that's infested with bba. Non of these leaves will recover and are only going to drag the tank down further.

Like MichaelJ suggests the removal of these will allow more flow to reach the remaining healthy parts of the plant and reduce the overall demand for nutrients.

Cheers.
 
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