Purigen

Discussion in 'Hardware & DIY' started by Dave Spencer, 9 Jul 2007.

  1. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    Does anybody else out there use this stuff? I am using it on two of my tanks now (I find it difficult to fit in to my nano tank filter) and am mightily impressed with the water clarity it gives.

    All my tanks had what I presumed to be crystal clear water, but Purigen takes the clarity a notch higher. It is most noticeable in my Iwagumi which is basically a lot of water column inside an opti white high clarity glass 60cm tank.

    The only downside is that you need to open up your filter every three weeks or so to regenerate the stuff overnight, and then open it up again to put the Purigen back in the following day. What I do is keep a spare bag of Purigen, so when I take out an exhausted bag the standby goes straight in. The exhausted one is then regenerated and left as standby for the next filetr opening. it is still a bit of a pain, but it minimises the number of times you have to open up your filter.

    When I do water changes, the water I take out is clearer than the tap water going in.

    Dave.
     
  2. CJ Castle

    CJ Castle Newly Registered

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Uk...
    It sounds very impressive... How often can you regenerate Purigen before it becomes exhausted?
     
  3. Maximumbob

    Maximumbob Member

    Messages:
    119
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    I have some but have yet to use it... sounds like its going in at next water change :)
     
  4. Graeme Edwards

    Graeme Edwards Founder Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,161
    Location:
    Wirral/Chester Cheshire.
    Sounds interesting, would it work well on removing tannins from leaching bog wood????

    How do you recharge it?

    Oh and have you got a link for us by any chance?

    Cheers.
     
  5. CJ Castle

    CJ Castle Newly Registered

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Uk...
    Graeme, you can get Seachem purigen from AE...
     
  6. Graeme Edwards

    Graeme Edwards Founder Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,161
    Location:
    Wirral/Chester Cheshire.
    Cool, just had a look, sounds very good, and easy to recharge, even better.
     
  7. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex
    how do you guys find the claim that purigen adsorbs nitrogen as ammonia/nitrite/nitrate?

    does this not limit what is available for the plnats?


    andrew
     
  8. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    It doesn`t take any ferts away from the plants that we dose. What it does do is remove organic nitrogenous waste. Unlike carbon, it is more specific in what it targets.

    I recharge mine in ordinary household bleach, but make sure you use unscented as opposed to pine etc. This leaves you with Purigen at a high pH, so I buffer mine down to a pH close to my tanks.

    Graeme, it does remove tanins. The product is by Seachem and you can read up about it on their website. Purigen came to my notice on APC when Jeff Senske raved about it.

    Like I say, it is a lot of faffing around, but if you want crystal clear water.....

    Dave.
     
  9. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex

    isn't the nitrogen what the plants want to use?
    NPK and all that

    andrew
     
  10. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    What we add is ferts in their mineral form. Purigen does not impact on these, but it will remove the causes of discolouration such as tanins and humic acid.

    Dave.
     
  11. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex
    dave i understand the claims made by seachem that trace elements etc are not removed by purgen

    it seems to my inexperienced mind that if plants utilise ammonium or nitrite nitrate and we have a chemical resin that removes those then the two processes seem competive to me

    prehaps i am misunderstanding something?

    prehasp the plants are more efficent at fixing nitrogen ?

    andrew
     
  12. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    Fishgeek,

    Ammonia and nitrite are not welcome in my tanks. As for my plants fixing N, well they do that from the KNO3 that I dose.

    Dave.
     
  13. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex
    it seems unnatural to me that there would be no ammonia in an ecosystem

    i take it you have no fish in the tanks?
    just plants

    i know we theoretically are looking at zero readings for ammonia , i assume that in my tanks this is just because utilisation is quicker than production
    ie plants and filter bacteria are fixing or oxidisingthrough to other forms of nitrgenous waste

    if my bacteria and plants are already utilising this nitrogen source and i add something else that adsorbs those nitrogen molecules , i assume(and this is what i would like to understand better) that maybe my filter bacteria reduce in numbers? maybe my plants have less nitrogen for growth

    obviously, as you are doing, nitrogen can be added to the system
    though here i still wonder why add it in one process and remove it with another?

    i dont understand purigen , and it seems to have some great commnets about it's ability to increase water clarity... it seems that is because of it's ability to remove organic "staining" of the water

    i keep fish and plants together , and am trying to learn more about the plants as i may have to move/reduce tank life to some

    i tend to accept my nitrogen source as being fish food related, either uneaten(lets hope not) or after processing preotein etc and releasing ammonia or urea as fish waste

    i was also under the impression that plants would actually prefer to fix ammonium ions rather than the nitrogen presented as nitrate ?

    andrew
     
  14. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    All my tanks have fish in them.

    I place the Purigen as the last stage of filtration, so the water has passed through the bacteria before it reaches the Purigen. All it is doing is giving a final polish to the water by removing organics that would be discharged by the filter.

    Personally, I have never looked at Ammonia as a form of plant fertilisation. What is the ppm of Ammonia in your water as a first choice supply of N for your plants compared to nitrates?

    It works for me. I understand your scepticism, because I don`t add anything to my tanks other than plant ferts (no snake oils for me), but Purigen is not an additive, it is a further stage of water purification.

    Indeed they do, but I am not about to start fertilising with Ammonia. Like I said, what is the proportion of N available to plants from Ammonia compared to nitrates? Ammonia is a toxin to fish and an algae trigger. I have started adding Purigen to already established planted tanks with zero detrimental effects on my plants` health. The only changes I have observed are water which is that little bit clearer, which is worth the effort, in my opinion.

    Dave.
     
  15. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex
    thanks the comprehensive response dave

    i cant answer the ammonia query for my water as i have not measured my water quality (as far as ammonia) in the last 2 yrs
    i am prehaps moving, and defiintely having work done in the area's i keep some of my tanks , so at present i am being forced to downsize

    many of my tanks are being emptied of fish

    i'm not sceptical of purigen, i just am inquisitive , oh and cheap ;)

    andrew
     
  16. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    Nothing wrong with being inquisitive Andrew. When I read about the cocktails some people on other forums add to their tanks to raise this or lower that, I really have to despair.

    Hopefully, this forum will become the first stop for any plantheads with inquisitive minds.

    Dave.
     
  17. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Expert/Global Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,937
    Location:
    Chicago, USA
    Hello Andrew,
    If you are a Barr report subscriber it may help to search the Newsletter section where you will find Mr. Barrs discussion regarding Nitrogen. I pulled a paragraph from the newsletter which may sum up this item:

    QUOTE
    ====
    Are the forms of nitrogen important?

    There are several forms of nitrogen but most aquarist are familiar with some of these such as NH4+ and NO3- which are the two forms that plants will
    use. There is also a distinction between Dissolved organic (DON) and dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) in the water column. Plants can use the DIN but have
    trouble with the DON fraction. While there is some scant evidence that plants will use a small amount of NO2-, it is generally a toxic anion that plays an insignificant role in our tanks after a period on new tank cycling. Try adding NO2- and see if the plants remove any significant amount. Try many species.
    The concentration levels will sit there unless you have bacteria to covert it to NO3- in which case the NO3- will be removed...

    UNQUOTE
    ======

    This is a fascinating article which addresses the mechanics of the Nitrogen cycle within closed systems and addresses the argument of whether plants have a preference for NH4 versus NO3.

    The conclusion therefore is that at low NH4 concentrations macrophytes have a strong preference for NO3 leaving the NH4 for the microbial reduction, and that they have a strong preference for Nitrogen dosed inorganicly as opposed to the organicg forms found in the reduction of Amino acids and proteins. Therefore if Purigen specifically targets these organic forms of Nitrogen while leaving our dosed mineral forms untouched it is not at all surprising that this product is as successful as claimed. Evidently, much of the discoloration of the tank water is caused by these organic forms so it would appear to be a win-win for Purigen. The fact that it is (supposedly) indefinitely rechargeable means it's a perfect product for cheapskates.

    Hopefully this clarifies a bit. You should definitely review the Nitrogen newsletter. It is dated 2005 but is not difficult to find using "newsletter" as a search parameter. You do have to pay $12.95 to access these newsletter though...

    Cheers,
     
  18. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex
    organic meaning carbon based? i assume that is the definition used in the barr report

    i guess the purigen then is binding the organic and the any nitrogen bound there is taken along for the ride

    and i guess the plants find it easy to access the nitrogen when not bound s tightly, as happens with simple salts of ammonia etc

    makes sense
    i guess i will ave to try some , thanks for all the education
    andrew
    i'm liking this site already
     
  19. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Expert/Global Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,937
    Location:
    Chicago, USA
    Hi Andrew,
    Yes by convention an organic compound is any member of the class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon, however, I believe the convention also requires that the compound be a product of a living cycle so that compounds such as carbonates, carbon oxides and cyanides, as well as elemental carbon are considered inorganic. As a result of the metabolic processes of the plants as well as of the fauna, the exceted products will include organic products such as Polysaccharides, carbohydrates and sugars, Enzymes, Hormones Lipids and fatty acids, Neurotransmitters, Nucleic acids, Proteins, peptides and amino acids and even Vitamins.

    Now really, I'm not sure if it is necessarily solely the strength of the molecular bonds within the organic compounds that are a deterrent to the plants. It may be that the incredible complexity of those molecules require many more reduction processes to actually strip the Nitrogen whereas possibly separating N from O3 may require far fewer reduction steps, so that's where the ease might be, but I'm totally guessing at this point. That sounds like a really good question to ask Mr. Barr though. I don't think he actually addressed that point in the article. I'll have to re-read it!

    Cheers,
     
  20. Maximumbob

    Maximumbob Member

    Messages:
    119
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    I dove in and put purigen into my filter along with API phoszorb.

    All I can say is WOW.

    The water clarity and fish colours are fantastic. The plants seem to be loving it. Increased photosynthesis etc.

    My only concern is how long I can keep this up before a recharge/replace is necessary.
     

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