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Reconstituters....

HiNtZ

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What chemicals have you all got on the shelf to reconstitute 100% RO/DI?

I'm not very happy using solely GH booster because of the potassium. I'd like to decide when and how the K goes in.... same goes for KH without wholey using sodium based chemicals. I would like to however have a balance here to have at least a tad of sodium.

Any advice? Cheers!
 
Calcium Carbonate
Magnesium Carbonate
Magnesium Sulphate
Magnesium Chloride
Potassium Bicarbonate

Front loaded Macro so Magnesium Nitrate and Potassium Phosphate added also.
Daily Micro, that chemical soup list is long.

The Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate need to be turned into Bicarbonate before it can be added to the water change water, this is done by adding them to Carbonated Cold water (Sodastream) along with some Ascorbic Acid to reduce the pH to ensure maximal dissolution in the bottle, when this resultant 900ml of milk is added to around 24L of RO/DI there is 100% dissolution overnight and the water becomes crystal clear.

Trying to pin down Mulders' chart for me started a bit of a water chemistry obsession with the goal being to have nutritious waters without bumping into antagonism by adding nutrient fillers in excess (sodium, chlorides and sulphates).

:)
 
Calcium Carbonate
Magnesium Carbonate
Magnesium Sulphate
Magnesium Chloride
Potassium Bicarbonate

Front loaded Macro so Magnesium Nitrate and Potassium Phosphate added also.
Daily Micro, that chemical soup list is long.

The Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate need to be turned into Bicarbonate before it can be added to the water change water, this is done by adding them to Carbonated Cold water (Sodastream) along with some Ascorbic Acid to reduce the pH to ensure maximal dissolution in the bottle, when this resultant 900ml of milk is added to around 24L of RO/DI there is 100% dissolution overnight and the water becomes crystal clear.

Trying to pin down Mulders' chart for me started a bit of a water chemistry obsession with the goal being to have nutritious waters without bumping into antagonism by adding nutrient fillers in excess (sodium, chlorides and sulphates).

:)

Well I learned something new today! ...the other half of what I learned yesterday about turning a bicarbonate into a carbonate.

I like the idea of the soda stream but haven't got one - it seems the potassium bicarbonate is the best choice for ease here, right?

What would you consider an excess for Na & S?

Thanks for your time :)
 
The above mix was aiming for 15ppm of K and having parameter ratios for Ca/Mg/K/NO₃ at 2:1:1:1 and NO₃/PO₄ 3:1, GH/KH ratio 1:1, so I had to come up with a formula that fit. I could have reached the same values using sulphates or chlorides but I have found this came with an increased TDS cost, for instance using Salty Shrimp Mineral GH+ for water hardening without carbonates results in (before ferts) GH6 KH0 TDS 150-200 (because it's a blend of Magnesium and Calcium chlorides you might not always get the exact same ratio in the scoop but it's near enough for it not to really matter though), whereas the above mix comes comes with 2 additional GH points and 8 in KH, front loaded with Nitrates and Phosphates for a whopping 130-150 TDS and the plants can eat it all.

It's not an easy mix but it's a balanced mix.
 
The above mix was aiming for 15ppm of K and having parameter ratios for Ca/Mg/K/NO₃ at 2:1:1:1 and NO₃/PO₄ 3:1, GH/KH ratio 1:1, so I had to come up with a formula that fit. I could have reached the same values using sulphates or chlorides but I have found this came with an increased TDS cost, for instance using Salty Shrimp Mineral GH+ for water hardening without carbonates results in (before ferts) GH6 KH0 TDS 150-200 (because it's a blend of Magnesium and Calcium chlorides you might not always get the exact same ratio in the scoop but it's near enough for it not to really matter though), whereas the above mix comes comes with 2 additional GH points and 8 in KH, front loaded with Nitrates and Phosphates for a whopping 130-150 TDS and the plants can eat it all.

It's not an easy mix but it's a balanced mix.

It may not be easy but it certainly has piqued my interest to really break everything down that's going in to individual chemicals so I take the guesswork out of the tap and eventually the traces. It seems as though you've been on that journey for a while!

I certainly would like to be around 150 TDS though!

Calcium Carbonate
Magnesium Carbonate
Magnesium Sulphate
Magnesium Chloride
Potassium Bicarbonate

Do you have any recommendations where I can get these in the UK?
 
Hi all,
Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Magnesium Sulphate, Magnesium Chloride, Potassium Bicarbonate
The Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate need to be turned into Bicarbonate before it can be added to the water change water, this is done by adding them to Carbonated Cold water (Sodastream) along with some Ascorbic Acid to reduce the pH to ensure maximal dissolution in the bottle
It will help a bit, but the group 2 (MgCO3, CaCO3) carbonates will still come out of solution when you add them to the tank, it is back to the <"CO2~carbonate~pH equilibrium, and the common ion effect">.
periodic group1.jpg

The group 1 "alkali" metal carbonates are soluble in water (they are the only carbonates that are), so as soon as you add potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) (as K+ and 2HCO3- ions), the <"least soluble carbonate"> (CaCO3) will come out of solution.

cheers Darrel
 
I agree this mixture is on the threshold of solubility targeting 32mg/L Ca while looking at it with the solubility of CaCO₃ being 47mg/L equilibrium CO₂ @ 25c, however there is zero observable precipitation within the tank (water level evaporation precipitation excluded as its present but minor), that's not saying it doesn't happen though only that if it is happening it will be during the night CO₂ off gassing phase when the pH climbs toward equilibrium level of 7.8, reversing on the day phase with CO₂ injection down to pH6.2 (gas on 1.5hr before lights).

The water is pH monitored with calibrated probes (have 2 injected tanks using same source water, one with active substrate and one with inert gravel, the active substrate has near enough filled its CEC so the profile is only slightly different by 0.2pH points, the probes read the same exact figures they are supposed to when swapped around the tanks and when in both tanks together (to discount electrical interference), that's multipoint calibration in addition to two reference calibration fluids (4 and 7), the daily profile never changes and the atmospheric equilibrium point is always pH7.8 when read in the morning before injection phase, at water change the sample kept outside the tank for comparative analysis (where I store the probe to keep it wet while performing the change) always reads pH7.8 and the drop checker is always the same shade of green. It's the stable carbonate hardness, daily, weekly, monthly, that's important here for non variance pH controlled CO₂ injection in low conductivity waters (sub 200 TDS).

I should also say that I have a third tank that has the same water and also has active substrate (JBL shrimp soil) just red rams horns for fauna, mainly crypts and Java fern for flora, it has no CO₂ injection and very infrequent micro (macro front loaded in the water), Java fern not doing so well developing the shotgun blast look, crypts slowly doing well since they are planted and enjoy a little osmocote in the tropica powder soil base layer (JBL cap layer), the tiny smattering of duck weed on the surface is still green and multiplying (very very slowly thankfully), zero precipitation, Snails shells look great in this tank, not so much in the CO₂ injected tanks which look fairly shabby telling me day phase CO₂ injection leaves some room for the water to take up a smidgen more calcium robbing it over a long period of time mainly from the larger adult snails, although not enough to effect the water KH week to week.

The actual recipe for 25L water and further notes on preparation are as follows -

25L RO/DI water contained in a plastic construction tightly sealable Jerry can. The need for a tight seal is you want to retain the CO₂ in the overal mixture to keep CaCO₃ in solution for as long as possible, this also has an advantage that water changes and maintenance can be performed during the lights on phase of an injection cycle as overall the water in the sealed container roughly holds 30-35ppm CO₂ (this is what I have observed over quite a few months since using this remineralisation formula). Decant 900ml of this water to the soda stream bottle and refrigerate.

Add to 900ml Refrigerated Cold Carbonated RO/DI (one full level round in new type soda stream machine is enough)-

2g Calcium Carbonate
1g Magnesium Bicarbonate
0.25g Ascorbic Acid

In order to keep as much CO₂ from off gassing the above mixture is added to a food spice diffusion bag and placed fully and quickly into the neck of the briefly open bottle, above the cold pressurised water making sure to close the top tightly before shaking to mix (adding the powder without the bag can turn the water into a volcano, not quite bicarbonate into vinegar but it gets close). This mix goes back into the fridge for 24hrs just to give it time to go somewhat into solution, it's more of a suspension that can sediment but over 24hrs there is a massive reduction in sedimentation happening and the liquid takes on a cloudy lemonade look telling me some bicarbonate has formed, when the bottle is reagitated and the sedimentation goes back into suspension the resultant liquid looks like skimmed milk (importantly the mix has fully exited the spice bag by this time).

A day before performing the water change I will add to the 24.1L (or thereabouts water volume it may be more, I just need enough space in there to take the 900ml back and not spill over the lip when the Jerry can is sitting upright and level)-

1g Potassium Bicarbonate
0.75g Magnesium Nitrate
0.5g Magnesium Sulphate
0.2g Potassium Phosphate
Pinch of Magnesium Chloride

I don't measure the Magnesium Chloride out because it really is just a teeny tiny pinch just enough so Chloride is non-zero hence its magnesium content I don't add to the final numbers I'll give below.

Once these salts are in the water in the Jerry can I then take the cold bottle of bicarbonate/carbonate solution from the fridge and add it all in (opening the bottle slowly and no vigorous agitation beforehand as to not off gas too much CO₂), fish out the empty spice bag floating at the top and pour half the liquid into the Jerry can, the remaing liquid in the bottle is given a swirl around to pick up any sedimentation and poured directly into the Jerry can, I then seal the top and leave it overnight to go clear.

24hr dwell time for everything in the water is not any special number it's just the minimum time I have so far left it to sit before use and since I do two jerry cans at a time. The other end of the wait spectrum is a Jerry can sitting 2 weeks before use with CO₂ still being retained at 30-35ppm.

The resultant values in mg/L are (resultant water TDS <150) -

Ca / 32
Mg / 14.42 (not counting MgCl addition)
K / 17.9
NO₃ / 15
PO₄ / 5.58
S / 2.6
Cl / Non zero

GH / 7.8 (MgCl addition probably pushes this to nearer 8)
KH / 7.8
pH / 7.8 (@ atmospheric CO₂ from stored sample which correlates with in tank behaviour)

In tank CO₂ injection phase behaviour -
pH / 6.2 (estimated 30ppm CO₂ via Lime Green colour change to Drop Checker 4dKH sample)

I have not measured the pH directly in the Jerry can but performing a water change (50%ish of total system water, 80%ish tank volume which other than plants there's is only 10 year old Bogwood and inert gravel substrate to alter the water chemistry to which it doesn't), the resultant refilled tank pH is 6.1 (controller set to 6.2 so once the canister filter is restarted and left to run for a few minutes the excess gasses off quickly and the controller can kick in when it reaches its control point).

Zero issues (inspecting for sedimentation issues within the Jerry can before use and there are none), crystal clear water. Further to this I'm currently skipping a water change or two to test if the KH drops over a longer period between water changes, 3 weeks so far and the KH hasn't budged (CO₂ equilibrium point is still pH 7.8 and the CO₂ addition pH drop to 6.2 results in the familiar lime green drop checker), micro daily and bio carbon every two days (non chelated micro, only chelation is if it binds with any free Gluconate that the Iron is sourced from when mixed in the same bottle).

For interest my daily micro dose levels in mg/L are -

Fe Gluconate / 0.1
Fe DTPA / 0.05
Mn / 0.05
B / 0.03
Cu / 0.002
Mo / 0.0015
Ni / 0.0005

The motivation for all this was trying to get Bucephalandra to thrive without deficiencies (leaf holes, curled malformed leaves, melt), previous remineralisation strategies were first Salty Shrimp Bee GH+ for 0KH, the rhizomes didn't appear to like this and disintegrated, I'm speculating through super low pH causing beneficial rhizobacterial colonies to not thrive, EI with FeEDTA based micro, stem plants absolutely thrived here. Next stop a combination of Salty Shrimp Bee GH+ and Seachem Alkaline Buffer (to KH8), brought the pH right up averaging neutral between CO₂ injected and degassed pH, halted rhizome degradation but any growth was glacial with curled malformed tiny new leaves, pinholes in old growth worst affected would melt in half if lucky, unlucky if the whole plant melted, grim if it's a whole bunch. Worried about iron dropping out of the EDTA I added supplemental FeDTPA, issues remained. I was providing all the necessary nutrients but no improvement. Stopped using Alkaline Buffer as I ran out and couldn't justify the cost of it (being mostly sodium bicarbonate) and swapped it out to Potassium Bicarbonate for the KH (that's a load of potassium before accounting for what comes along with the nitrate), not long after this did I stop using EDTA derived micro (ruminating that I may have FeEDTA de-chelation issues) I swapped to making a mix of Seachem Trace with Flourish Comprehensive (to near EI levels) fortified with Fe DTPA, got growth but leaf issues persisted, melting stopped though. Stopped using Seachem Trace (dosed at EI levels it gets expensive fast) and went DIY, went the whole hog and rethought the whole process for remineralisation focusing on Tap waters from natural sources where others (Vasteq mainly since he appears to have nailed it) had success with these plants and was compatible with CO₂ injection in mind. The above is the result.

I can now grow Bucephalandra. No melt. No disintegrating rhizomes. No malformed or tiny new growth. No pinholes. It's a minor victory but I'll take it.

Where there's growth (1 leaf every two weeks on the strongest growing plants) the Rhizome is elongating and new leaves reach maturity normally without deficiencies. Their mass is increasing. Current skipping WC test showed halted growth in new leaves after second week, phosphate or nitrate likely bottomed out a bit (still feeding fish in here) and it's readdition got growth going again, halted leaf has now opened growing again (without malformation) and a new leaf is on its way.

Read lots, learnt lots, thankfully now reaping the benefits.

It's my Cat and this is how I skin it!

:)
 
Last edited:
Hi all,
I can now grow Bucephalandra. No melt. No disintegrating rhizomes. No malformed or tiny new growth. No pinholes. It's a minor victory but I'll take it.
Sounds good, just keep on going.
I agree this mixture is on the threshold of solubility targeting 32mg/L Ca while looking at it with the solubility of CaCO₃ being 47mg/L equilibrium CO₂ @ 25c, however there is zero observable precipitation within the tank (water level evaporation precipitation excluded as its present but minor), that's not saying it doesn't happen though only that if it is happening it will be during the night CO₂ off gassing phase when the pH climbs toward equilibrium level of 7.8, reversing on the day phase with CO₂ injection down to pH6.2 (gas on 1.5hr before lights).
The CaCO3 will definitely go in and out of solution as the level of CO2 changes, but it will do this even if it wasn't originally in solution.

Solubility will be enhanced if you have very fine CaCO3 particles (which you will have), because of their large surface area to volume ratio. It is the <"snail shell under added CO2 scenario">. Because your pH returns to pH 7.8 you know that you still have carbonate buffering in the tank.

cheers Darrel
 
So I'm a bit confused by the precipitation thing?

Is the difficulty keeping it in solution in the bottle, or the tank as well? Can you add acid to the solution as well as carbonating it to help?

I'd really like to have a go rolling my own as far as the Ca/Mg/KH goes. I just need a clear enough plan to start with.

Would keeping CO2 24/7 help with these? I could probably hold a decent 6.5-6.8ph constantly that way....

I'm just having visions of adding the solution to the water and seeing a white snow of deposits all over the place :/
 
Hi all,
Is the difficulty keeping it in solution in the bottle, or the tank as well? Can you add acid to the solution as well as carbonating it to help? I'd really like to have a go rolling my own as far as the Ca/Mg/KH goes. I just need a clear enough plan to start with.
Would keeping CO2 24/7 help with these? I could probably hold a decent 6.5-6.8ph constantly that way....
It could happen in both tank and bottle, it depends upon the ratio of bases (H+ ion acceptors) and acids (H+ ion donors). In the bottle you can just add enough acid to dissolve all the calcium carbonate (CaCO3), it is like when you drip a strong acid (HCl) on chalk, CaCl2(aq) and CO2 are formed and you can see the CO2 as bubbles.

When you add CO2, you've donated a H+ ion (from the H2CO3). Calcium carbonate is sparingly soluble in pure water (<"15mg/L at 25oC">), but soluble in acids. This is a buffered system where CO2 (as H2CO3) and CO3 (as HCO3-) are the conjugate acid and base.

This is also how a drop checker works. We have a known amount of bases (the 4dKH solution) and we can use the change in pH (via the change in colour of the bromothymol blue pH indicator) to estimate our CO2 concentration.

CO2 in solution acts as an acid because a very small proportion of it becomes carbonic acid (H2CO3). The proportion of CO2 that becomes H2CO3 is dependent upon the amount of CO2 dissolved, which is proportional to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (~400 mg/L), unless you are continually adding it. If you continually add CO2, you will retain more Ca++ and 2HCO3- ions in solution (you have more CO2 in solution than the equilibrium value, therefore more H2CO3 and more H+ ions).
I'm just having visions of adding the solution to the water and seeing a white snow of deposits all over the place :/
If you add a lot of potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) that is exactly what happens, but it shouldn't with @X3NiTH's solution.

When you turn off the CO2 CaCO3 will begin to precipitate, but it may go back into solution as CO2 levels rise (from the respiration of the bio-load outside of the photo-period).

cheers Darrel
 
No you won't see precipitation with this mix, one of the tanks I mentioned above receives the same water but no CO₂, I presume it sits near equilibrium the majority of the time and there's is zero discernible precipitation, higher humidity in air space of this tank (heat from light above) has so far not allowed any water to dry out on the glass above the water line and so hence there is practically zero calcification tide marks. Not tested anything in this tank, literally fill it and then neglect it for a few weeks between water changes.

The acid in use here is Ascorbic acid (0.25g/25L), also it's in the micro solution to bring pH right down to 3 (0.25g/500ml dosed 3ml per day to 40L system volume).

The precursor experiment to using food grade Calcium and Magnesium Carbonates (it's a flour so massive surface area to volume as described by Darrel above) started with the thought of buying and using Dolomite Powder but it comes with mystery milligrams of trace metals (wasn't pure enough for my liking), remembered I had a bag of Cuttlefish Fish bone and had at it with a Stanley blade and shaved it into a powder, performed the same preparation as above and it worked although it had a fishy aroma to it and not knowing its preparation assumed it will come with mystery milligrams but at least the test worked and so opted for the food grade carbonates instead.

:)
 
Hi all,
started with the thought of buying and using Dolomite Powder but it comes with mystery milligrams of trace metals (wasn't pure enough for my liking)..........and so opted for the food grade carbonates instead.
Dolomite powder is a ground limestone where some of the calcium has been replaced by magnesium during lithification. Dolomitization of lime rich muds occurs in warm, evaporite basins, so you will get other <"evaporite salts"> incorporated into the rock.

I would assume they are the other trace metals, and I wouldn't worry about them.

cheers Darrel
 
I like the idea of the soda stream but haven't got one
I use Asda fizzy water at 17p for 2 litres. (most of the lower priced carbonated waters have a low mineral content). I add it to rainwater/tap water mix to bring CO2 up. Then follow EI trail at the lower end for macro nutrients. Many years ago used Soda Stream but when the unit broke and the little CO2 bottles became hard to find I gave up on it. Assume its back on the market.
Love this hobby, it brings the Scientist out in people.
 
Thanks again guys - I'm just waiting on the stuff to arrive. The magnesium carbonate which turned up already is weird - virtually weightless it feels.
 
Hi all,
The magnesium carbonate which turned up already is weird - virtually weightless it feels
As a salt the pentahydrate (MgCO3.5H2O) is of similar density to sodium chloride (NaCl), but yours is "food grade" and really finely ground. You could make it denser by heating, the anhydrous salt will be denser (water has a density of "1", and your salt will be hydrated), but you've already paid for the water. Salts that "want" to be hydrated can only be kept anhydrous by storing with a desiccant in a air tight container.

You can think of it as the difference between snow and ice, or <"granulated and icing sugar">, ice and granulated sugar are a lot denser, because they don't contain the air that the fine powders do.

cheers Darrel
 
The magnesium carbonate which turned up already is weird - virtually weightless it feels.

Magnesium Carbonate has huge bulk to it, feels like wool in the bag. Wait till the Magnesium Chloride turns up, that's a sensory pleasure in itself, squeeze the bag and it crunches like footsteps on fresh snow.

Love this hobby, it brings the Scientist out in people.

Yeah, curiosity, just listening to the radio isnt enough it has to be taken apart and put back together multiple times, learning, then building your own. Not everybody's cup of tea though!

I would assume they are the other trace metals, and I wouldn't worry about them.

Funnily enough I didn't wholly discount its use because of this even though I said differently above, I could have lived with it if it was easier to source than the food grade carbonates, had an MSDS for the product, and it came in a less than 20 Kilo Bag. Turns out using the food grade carbonates is easier and a little more precise.

:)
 
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