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Secret garden - my first aquascape

@Geoffrey Rea yes this makes perfect sense and is extremely useful. Thank you again for being so generous with your time. I did watch something by the 2hr aquarist the other week on lean nitrate dosing in the water column to get red plants (as my h'ra are barely red) so of course this is the ADA regime. I actually thought my soil was nutrient dense but clearly it's not!! It seems my tank has fallen between two stools without me realising it. Just out of interest, how do you get h'ra red on the EI dosing regime? Perhaps I have made a mistake choosing this plant for this set-up? Is there a book with all this incredible detailed information? I have read Sunken Gardens and it's a nice intro but the devil is certainly in the detail.

@bazz thank you - I'll get everything ordered now.

Thanks again @Geoffrey Rea - I'll make these changes and report back with hopefully some good news!!
 
Sorry one last thing - is the Oase spraybar definitely 12mm? It looks like there are two bars that are joined together with a bit of tubing which seems a little strange. I'd be happy with a black Eheim spraybar all one length and 12mm same as the green one but I can seem to find it. Typical!
 
Welcome @Saman

Just out of interest, how do you get h'ra red on the EI dosing regime?

Simple answer, you won’t. But with good Co2 and EI dosing it will be a very handsome orange. Read through the 2hr Aquarist website if you want a detailed account on how to achieve differing colouration and care of various plant species. Dennis has done a great job with the website.

Sorry one last thing - is the Oase spraybar definitely 12mm? It looks like there are two bars that are joined together with a bit of tubing which seems a little strange.

You would need to be sure, might require an email to the seller just to check. The two spraybars are joined by a piece of tubing.

I'd be happy with a black Eheim spraybar all one length and 12mm same as the green one but I can seem to find it. Typical!

Eheim don’t appear to do black with their 12mm kit, just the 16mm for some reason.

An alternative in black is JBL’s offering:



Is there a book with all this incredible detailed information? I have read Sunken Gardens and it's a nice intro but the devil is certainly in the detail.

To be honest have not done much reading on the hobby, others will be able to advise much more admirably. Start a thread asking for recommendations?

I'll make these changes and report back with hopefully some good news!!

Looking forward to it. Excellent first aquascape by the way 😎
 
@Geoffrey Rea I've been thinking about what you said about the ADA system - power sand & needing less CO2 and I've had a look at a few journals that use this approach. To me this seems like the easier way to go about things and I wish I'd gone down this road. What would you say are the pros and cons of doing this verses what I've accidentally ended up doing? What do you prefer to do? I imagine it's the soil running out of nutrients but then you can just flip over to the other method. I'm wondering if I can boost things in my tank with root tabs... I really thought the soil I was using was beneficial (Tropical Aquarium soil) so I'm a bit confused by everything and annoyed I didn't know about the power sand vs everything else.

With the h'ra, do you think it would be beneficial to replant it given the bottom half of the plant has yellow and speckled leaves and the top half looks strong and healthy? I cut it down every week but it occurred to me yesterday that I'm always cutting off the nicest bits. I could just replant the top halves. The roots are very well established though...

I'm still waiting for the black spraybar so no change on my tank yet - the glass has arrived though so hopefully I'll change over next week. I've also realised that I need to clean the inline diffuser!

Thank you!
 
I'm a bit confused by everything and annoyed I didn't know about the power sand vs everything else.

There’s nothing here to be confused by, nor worth getting annoyed about. We acquire knowledge on the basis we have a need for it in a hobby - it’s fun! Also a never ending journey which we should be grateful for, it keeps us interested.

All the different means of delivery are just tools @Saman . Picking the tool for the job assumes you knew what you wanted upfront, on your very first aquascape no less. Unlikely to be the case. Desires change as things tick along. You’re considering doing the other tank soon so maybe an opportunity to try another method on the second tank 🤔 Learn all methods, all the benefits and the downsides.

Presuming you want a better understanding of the intention of Powersand so will continue to head in that direction.

Powersand advanced - screened pumice with no sharp edges, peat, additives that promote the breakdown of humic substances (bacter 100), leads to humic acids and humates creating an acidic environment, phosphate in abundance.

For our intents and purposes look up ‘dystrophic lakes’. Wiki page will do. That’s what this layer intends to deliver. The phosphate is readily available for fresh roots with excess being picked up by the aquarium soil above and bacter 100 is simply food for bacteria to speed up the process of achieving a mature substrate. It’s not 100 types of bacteria in a bottle as the BS marketing states, it’s material that encourages the types of bacteria that are supposed to be beneficial in all sorts of functions from the get go. The peat clears up your water, hence why ADA can claim it increases water clarity at startup; this is linked to having a substrate that allows flow through it (baked clay balls and bits of pumice for structure) with the potential for oxygenated water to travel through the substrate.

Take money/brand/argument out of the equation and you have: a means for expediting substrate maturity, phosphate availability from the substrate, a mechanism for breaking down matter into micro nutrients (both binding toxic forms that plants haven’t used up that could be dangerous to your livestock in the early days and replenishing availability of micronutrients from the substrate from organic breakdown), a substrate that allows water to travel through it with the potential for oxygenated water to reach deeper for a more complex biome.

So what this means for the end user is we can get away with just a potassium source such as K2SO4 and a meagre amount of micros in the water column daily. It’s more prone to success at startup using a prescribed dosing system and lighting without any control (on/off with fixed PAR and tank dimensions).

Is Powersand Advance the be all and end all? No.

It’s just an easily marketed product that hedges the bet that things will work out if the consumer empties their wallet to let someone else do the thinking. It still works though… so not snake oil from this perspective but you’ve paid for someone else to do the thinking. Having N and P predominantly available from the substrate let’s you run a leaner water column under higher lighting = pretty colours.

I imagine it's the soil running out of nutrients but then you can just flip over to the other method. I'm wondering if I can boost things in my tank with root tabs...

You’re ahead of the game @Saman this is music to the ears. Human beings are great at empiricism if we want to observe thoroughly, honestly and without ego. Good luck with the current state of affairs as everyone would have you believe it’s picture perfect all the time. That’s not to say it can’t be, but the wisest gardeners know what to do, when to do it and how this may lead to downsides in the longer run.

For example, Pogostemon erectus loves being root fed with a lean water column, soft water, low KH, high light (200 PAR plus in the top six inches of depth) with minimal competition at the roots. This is exampled by the broadest leaves with yellow and green colouration that is robust to algal problems. The downside is if you don’t tear it out, thin it out and force it to produce new rooting occasionally it’s root system is so thick and extensive, everything around it suffers under the ADA method. Other things don’t appreciate root tabs placed directly underneath them, Rotala wallichii for example. As a hobbyist you’re simply looking for a causative model and monitoring the outcome and looking for repeated results. Mentioned controlling your input water earlier as it benefits consistency when we’re learning.


With the h'ra, do you think it would be beneficial to replant it given the bottom half of the plant has yellow and speckled leaves and the top half looks strong and healthy? I cut it down every week but it occurred to me yesterday that I'm always cutting off the nicest bits. I could just replant the top halves. The roots are very well established though...

General rule of thumb… let it top out (hit the surface three times) then it’s time to cut and replant the tops. It’s a fast and loose rule as during startup you may want to double plant mass - cut halfway, replant the tops and leave the rooted growth. It’s actually a lot more as the nodes will put out fresh stems, then you’re down to thinning out and replanting what is required.

been thinking about what you said about the ADA system - power sand & needing less CO2 and I've had a look at a few journals that use this approach. To me this seems like the easier way to go about things and I wish I'd gone down this road.

Free yourself. EI has its use, ADA method has its use, midpoint of the two has its use. Both may be appropriate at different times within the same month for one reason or another… But understand what Co2 input does and what effects it has on everything else. For all this waffle, the takeaway is simply what keeps the most diverse biome for the longest stretch of time? This forum is a rich tapestry of honest folks reporting what they are doing to the best of their ability and what the outcomes that were observable were.

Just a thought… why does everyone put Powersand everywhere across the footprint when setting up rather than in select places in a scape where distribution might be an issue under lean dosing? Yet to see a carpeting species that anyone wanted going more rampant 😂
 
Thanks @Geoffrey Rea for all your insight!

Yes it's true it's a learning process and the process should be fun. I think this hobby is quite hard though as you can't just pop to a class to learn things and it's still fairly niche. And I don't know anyone in person who does it. As you say, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that it's perfect all the time for other people (esp thanks to Instagram!).

Certainly walking into this I had no idea what I was doing and relied on other people to help me set it up without really understanding the why properly. I wanted a powerful substrate - a step up from my low tech tank which uses the Dennerle DeponitMix. You're right I can use my next tank to try Powersand Advance. And certainly yes it makes sense not to use it everywhere!

With the h'ra, I planted it heavily and close together from the start as I was sent so many pots so there's nowhere to replant the tops unless I take some established plants out. Do you think I should do this? I'm really keen to figure this plant out as I know how beautiful it can be. It has hit the water surface a fair few times already. Why do you think the leaves are yellow and speckled?

Thanks again for your help :)
 
With the h'ra, I planted it heavily and close together from the start as I was sent so many pots so there's nowhere to replant the tops unless I take some established plants out. Do you think I should do this? I'm really keen to figure this plant out as I know how beautiful it can be. It has hit the water surface a fair few times already. Why do you think the leaves are yellow and speckled?

Try for good specimens rather than lots with good flow through the stems. That means letting them get close to the light for best form and colouration.

To save on mess you can cut all the tops you need and put them to one side out of the tank. The lower growth you want removed - carefully place your scissors under the soil below the plant and sever the roots. With a wiggle you’ll get the lower plant out without causing an almighty mess. Discard the lower portions and replant the tops in their place.

You may find the yellow and speckled problem is resolved by just planting tops and thinning out the competition. Try and see. If it isn’t resolved just mention it again on this thread and will take another look.

Thanks again for your help :)

Pleasure.
 
I've finally put the spray bar in - I've been a bit lazy!!
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@Geoffrey Rea do you think this looks like the right position at the back? The holes are horizontal and there's a fair amount of surface agitation now. I've prepped my EI fertiliser so I'll start on that this week.
 
See how it goes @Saman but yes, that’s a good place to start from. You can adjust the spraybar up and down if there’s a need e.g. you decide to raise the water level etc.
 
Now I'm into a few weeks with the spraybar and EI ferts, it's time for an update here.

I've noticed plant growth has improved - particularly the h'ra - which are almost ready to trim and replant. (@Geoffrey Rea I'm a bit worried about doing this as I've just introduced some tiny clown killifish and I'm wondering if the substrate might release something nasty in the water when I lift them out at the roots - I need to stop buying difficult fish and stay focussed on the plants!!) However, the dreaded algae remains a problem on the slower growing plants - bucephalandra and moss mainly - and it is getting worse. I suspect it's due to the amount of light hitting the tank at the moment with this crazy heat wave and/or Co2 levels - and maybe flow still. I think my next steps will be i) manual removal with a tooth brush for the thread hair algae and trimming the bucephalandra with BBA or maybe spot dosing Seachem Flourish Excel (any advice on doing this would be v helpful) ii) looking at the Co2 levels by doing a PH profile now the spraybar is in place - I was doing this and then backed off when I switched things up iii) maybe taking the light intensity and duration down over the next few weeks - it's currently at 70% for 8 hrs a day - perhaps 60% for 6 hrs a day would be a good goal and then I can bring it back up when things are under control iv) improving flow further by taking some ceramics out of my Eheim canister filter v) giving up and starting something new (only joking - sort of!!). Latest pictures below - as always, I'd appreciate any insight. Oh and if anyone has any tips on getting these pesky snails out please tell me! I have 7 assassin snails in the tank - usually lazing around in the substrate and no help so far. Thanks all!
 

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I'm a bit worried about doing this as I've just introduced some tiny clown killifish and I'm wondering if the substrate might release something nasty in the water when I lift them out at the roots

Filter off and gently cut the stems below the surface to detach them from the roots. Thin out, cut to size, replant and then water change. You only really need to do this once the pack has become very congested. General pruning back to encourage bushing out is probably all that’s needed right now from what we can see in the photo’s.

Given you’re under EI fertilisation @Saman , Co2 management and water changes are the work horses of the method. There are adjustments made by your plants when you change dosing regimes. There is a transition period and it’s worth considering whether all of your proposed changes are reactive or proactive at making EI work.

If allowed only one action on your setup currently, would be water changing regularly through the current period. Lower the load on the system. Manual removal on top, even better. Twizzling toothbrush and pinching leaves:

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They need to be removed. EI will deliver new growth.
 
Now I'm into a few weeks with the spraybar and EI ferts, it's time for an update here.

think my next steps will be i) manual removal with a tooth brush for the thread hair algae and trimming the bucephalandra with BBA or maybe spot dosing Seachem Flourish Excel (any advice on doing this would be v helpful)
@Saman First I like the scape - the IMG_0479.jpg is nice. Now, the algae problem is fundamentally a CO2 / Light intensity / Flow / waste issue as you already know. Taking the intensity down, at least for a while should help, while you sort out the possible CO2 dosing / flow issues. I am not a CO2 expert (I only do low-tech tanks) - I just read a lot of forum posts by CO2 experts :)

+ Everything @Geoffrey Rea said...

Anyway, with respect to spot treating the BBA with Excel (I assume you mean spot treating and not spot dosing ? ), I've tried it with varying degrees of success a couple of times way in the past. The best approach I've found, besides setting expectations fairly low, is to take the plant out of the tank, let it dry just a little bit and use a small paint brush to spot treat infected areas of the leaves that appears salvageable, with a tiny amounts of Excel (be careful the Excel don't get on the roots!). When done, let the Excel sit on the leaves for a minute or two and put the plant back into the tank. Leaves that are severely covered in algae will not recover and are better removed right away - keeping the severely infected leaves around, will only drag down the rest of the plant and delay recovery. The approach where you dip the whole plant (minus the roots) into a mixture of water and Excel and let it sit for a few minutes never worked for me - its possible the mixture was too strong when I tried it.
BBA are almost impossible to remove mechanically... hair algae are relatively easy to remove manually with a toothbrush as you say... just a lot of work. But of course all will be back if light/CO2/flow/ferts and maintenance are not up to par.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Thanks @Geoffrey Rea - I'll just trim the H'ra for now then. With the replanting, are you suggesting leaving the roots in the substrate and just cutting off at the maximum point above substrate, cutting to size and replanting - leaving the previous roots in the substrate? Would you do this for just some and not all? Sorry I'm getting myself confused!

Okay it sounds like just keeping on top of algae removal and water changes for the transition period (how long is this?) is preferable to playing around with the light and flow further. I guess checking Co2 levels will do no harm although I am failing to find a reliable ph pen so my plans to start that today have been scuppered.

How many water changes per week should I do - maybe 2? I'm changing 50% at a time once a week. As it's RO it's not feasible to do much more. I'll clean the filter this weekend too.

Thank you, as always, for your help!
 
@MichaelJ - thank you :). Unfortunately I can't take my plants out as they are attached to the hardscape which is glued to rocks beneath the substrate. I was wondering how you do it in the water - maybe you can't??
 
With the replanting, are you suggesting leaving the roots in the substrate and just cutting off at the maximum point above substrate

Cutting just below the substrate to sever the stem from all of its roots. Sharp, curved scissors are excellent for this. The stem is then free and yours to do with as you please.

If you are gentle this mitigates turning the tank into canal water and causes minimal upset to the substrate. Thin roots left in the substrate will be consumed with time. If you ever do a scape with sloping soil, leaving the roots in also provides additional structure to hold the slope together.

You may get anywhere between 3 to 10 pruning back sessions before needing to lift and replant stems. Always do a large water change immediately after though.

Would you do this for just some and not all?

Depends on the species. For example, Rotala wallichii always requires tops replanting if you want it looking consistently nice, doesn’t appreciate being cut back. Other Rotala’s are fine just trimming back.

Once you get to know growth rates under specific conditions in your setup, pruning can be setup on a rota, it will be that regular.

This may seem a bit militant but it pays to be organised. For example, say you are due to trim a carpet and cut back a load of stems that have reached the surface. Cut back the stems adequately the first week then cut the carpet the following week. That way you’re not spending your time picking HC/MC/Eleocharis/UG out of the stems as the surface will be clear of growth. If you’re too lazy to use a net, employ an Eheim skim to collect all the floating bits of trimmed carpet and have a coffee whilst it does the work.

These are all just different ways of making maintenance more manageable in short, purposeful sessions. Work smarter not harder sort of thing. A setup that only takes up an hour per week is easily loved.

Okay it sounds like just keeping on top of algae removal and water changes for the transition period (how long is this?) is preferable to playing around with the light and flow further.

Manual removal combined with controlling your water, it goes a long way. Changing all your settings reactively… it’s like trying to drive a car down the motorway at 70mph and forcing each of the wheels to individually spin at different speeds. That’s what all these adjustments do. You’re gonna end up in an accident.

Your four wheels in this analogy; Co2, light, fertilisation and frequency needed for water change.

Currently EI is set, light is set… this leaves tuning Co2 to meet demand and noticing when a water change is needed to remove waste.

Others may alternatively suggest turning your light down. If this is the decision then you’re tailoring everything around that lower light input. The important thing is to commit to a light level and avoid moving the goal posts too frequently.

How many water changes per week should I do - maybe 2? I'm changing 50% at a time once a week. As it's RO it's not feasible to do much more.

There are a fair few EI tanks running with 2 x 50% per week with great results. Point is to do what is necessary at the time. Get that with RO it’s a bother. What we’re doing by shifting water in trouble periods is really freeing up o2 by removing waste. You’ll know when you have ample dissolved o2 against the tanks needs - your water will be gin clear all the time.
 
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