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So what is organic wastes?

jaypeecee

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So, water freely passes through the Seachem Renew and dissolved organics are retained. That being the case, would that mean that nitrifying and other bacteria can't get to work on these tasty morsels? If they can, then the organic waste would be broken down inside the filter and that would seem to be counterproductive, wouldn't it? Or maybe not.

I think I may have answered my own question. Seachem has this to say:

"Renew™ will remove organics and particulates in the sub-micron range; it will also help control ammonia, nitrates, and phosphates".

I think what Seachem are saying here is that ammonia, nitrates and phosphates are not produced inside the filter as a result of adding Renew.

As Monty Python used to say - my bwain hurts! (Spelling error intentional)

JPC
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I guess that the dissolved organics from organic waste are much larger than water molecules. So, water freely passes through the Seachem Renew and dissolved organics are retained.
Yes I'm sure that's it, they must be larger pores than you find in Purigen.
That being the case, would that mean that nitrifying and other bacteria can't get to work on these tasty morsels? If they can, then the organic waste would be broken down inside the filter and that would seem to be counterproductive, wouldn't it? Or maybe not.
It doesn't really matter where nitrification takes place.
According to the data sheet, it's pumice.
That was my guess, and I'd also be willing to speculate that it comes from the same mine as "Matrix", and the deposits are very close together.
I like your advertising slogan for Darrel's Amazon Frogbit. Excellent!
I already have a testimonial. A certified customer has contacted the, premium rate, help line with this message.
........I used to lose all my fish every month and then have to go and buy new ones. I'd never heard about werewolves but once I realised that they come out once a month, and that was when my fish died, the penny dropped and I thought I'd give "Darrel's Frogbit" a go.

Boy am I pleased I did, two months on no more fish deaths and its all down to the werewolf repellent properties of "Darrel's Frogbit".......
cheers Darrel
 
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Something I didn't see being mentioned is the actual pathogenic and non-pathogenic assembly of micro-organisms in a tank. From what I have read in studies on microbial assembly in aquaculture systems, the majority of pathogens detected populate mainly the water column. Doing sufficient water changes doesn't just remover organics but the actual pathogenic bacteria that is dangerous to fish if in prevailing numbers. The filter media itself or the substrate is a different situation as microbes work in symbiosis with each other and it is normal and healthy to have all type of microbes in there, unlike what you want in the water column where pathogens pose an immediate danger to fish. Hence chemical media is useless as it does not target pathogens, and skipping the water change means increased pathogenic load.

I personally never worry if I have siphoned the substrate, unless there is visible detritus, or even if I have cleaned the filter, although I do use pre-filters on the intakes that are regularly washed. I concentrate on doing large enough and regular water changes along with maintaining growing plants or some sort, and it does not fail me as far as fish health is concerned.
 
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jaypeecee

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Something I didn't see being mentioned is the actual pathogenic and non-pathogenic assembly of micro-organisms in a tank. From what I have read in studies on microbial assembly in aquaculture systems, the majority of pathogens detected populate mainly the water column. Doing sufficient water changes doesn't just remover organics but the actual pathogenic bacteria that is dangerous to fish if in prevailing numbers.

Hi SF,

Whilst I am very aware of pathogenic organisms that inhabit the water column, to which non-pathogenic organisms are you referring? Partly my reason for asking is that I have been considering the purchase of a UV-C sterilizer to kill off pathogens but I wouldn't want this to harm non-pathogenic organisms.

JPC
 
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Hi SF,

Whilst I am very aware of pathogenic organisms that inhabit the water column, to which non-pathogenic organisms are you referring? Partly my reason for asking is that I have been considering the purchase of a UV-C sterilizer to kill off pathogens but I wouldn't want this to harm non-pathogenic organisms.

JPC

Right now I am talking from the top of my head but you can read on biofloc technology studies for more details. Biofloc technoloy is a type of non-water changed aquaculture system that tries to achieve nature in a closed system.

Non-pathogens could be pretty much anything, certain protozoa, nematodes, other bacteria, etc..From all those there are some dangerous to fish and some harmless.
I wouldn't worry about killing non-pathogenic organisms in the water column because the ones that matter inhabit the filter/substrate, according to studies. The assembly of micro-organisms in the water column apparently changes throughout the day and can be influenced by many factors, as simple as what type of food one fed the fish today. In fact, feeding certain foods apparently can enhance the prevalence of certain organisms.

On another hand,they say the assembly of micro-organisms in the filter is fairly constant.

Since none of us owns the technology to test our tank water on a daily basis for the type of micro-organisms that are prevailing in certain scenarios, and science is still not advanced enough on the topic, it is best to keep the water clean, via water changes being the easiest but I suppose a UV sterilizer can also help. I personally think it's too much trouble as it doesn't guarantee it would be effective against all type of pathogens where a large water change would certainly reduce the amount of anything floating in the water column to a minimum, plus reduce other toxins. A tank is never sterile,and can never be but it is possible to keep the water fairly clean, enough so fish's immune system can cope with any minor stuff.

I think the key of understanding how to achieve nature in aquariums is studying those micro-organism and learn how to influence them to our advantage. So far science has been very poor. We have only recently made some leaps on the type of nitrifiers that get established in aquariums after false beliefs for decades(i.e. archaea) I personally believe that one day it will be possible to purposely set up and "maintain" an aquarium without water changes but right now without advanced knowledge available, if one strikes that balance, it is like winning the lottery. Whoever figures it out fully and is able to reproduce that system again and again, achieving healthy and vibrant fish, can get rich....All fish farms are trying to get there right now as the dangers of the usage of antibiotics on fish for human consumption is being highlighted and water changes on a large scale is not just expensive, it is dangerous, as one can pass on aquaculture microbes to the environment.
 

jaypeecee

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Biofloc technoloy is a type of non-water changed aquaculture system that tries to achieve nature in a closed system.

Since none of us owns the technology to test our tank water on a daily basis for the type of micro-organisms that are prevailing in certain scenarios, and science is still not advanced enough on the topic, it is best to keep the water clean, via water changes being the easiest but I suppose a UV sterilizer can also help. I personally think it's too much trouble as it doesn't guarantee it would be effective against all type of pathogens where a large water change would certainly reduce the amount of anything floating in the water column to a minimum, plus reduce other toxins.

Hi SF,

Thanks for the feedback.

I hadn't heard of biofloc technology so will do some reading.

The idea of tank water being treated by UV-C is appealing to me in the sense that 100% of the water passes through the UV-C sterilizer. We can't do, and wouldn't want to do, 100% water changes. Not only should a UV-C sterilizer kill off pathogenic bacteria but it should also kill fungal spores and algae spores. I have selected one for the size of my tank and flow rate. I just need to make the purchase.

I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm not in favour of water changes. On the contrary, I do water changes but I don't have a strict regime.

JPC
 

jaypeecee

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Hi Folks,

It has just occurred to me that here we are discussing organic waste and dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) but I don't think we've mentioned Oxidation-Reduction Potential (ORP) or Redox. As measuring biological oxygen demand (BOD) is not easy, we do have the option to measure ORP. The more waste in the tank, the lower the ORP thus making ORP a very useful water quality indicator (along with other parameters of one's choosing). Some time ago, I used to do this. So, I'll dig out my results and report back. I do also measure dissolved oxygen from time to time.

But I would also like to know where humic substances fit into this. They are organic compounds but they have been shown to be beneficial in aquaria so we wouldn't want to remove them. What effect do they have on ORP?

JPC
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
But I would also like to know where humic substances fit into this. They are organic compounds but they have been shown to be beneficial in aquaria so we wouldn't want to remove them. What effect do they have on ORP?
They don't have very much. It is back to the ease with which <"compounds are broken down">, there is very little energy gain in degrading these compounds, so they don't support much microbial biomass.

If you look at a blackwater river (like the Rio Negro) it has very low conductivity and microbial load.
I don't think we've mentioned Oxidation-Reduction Potential (ORP) or Redox
It is a little bit open to interpretation. Have a look at <"A question.....">.

cheers Darrel
 

jaypeecee

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...we do have the option to measure ORP. The more waste in the tank, the lower the ORP thus making ORP a very useful water quality indicator (along with other parameters of one's choosing). Some time ago, I used to do this. So, I'll dig out my results and report back.

Hi Folks,

I had a look over my ORP measurements from a 125 litre planted community tank. I recorded measurements from Feb 2018 to June 2018. Initially, the average ORP was +240mV with the odd increase to +350mV. Then, in April 2018, I changed the filter from a JBL i80 internal unit to an Eheim Ecco Pro 130 external unit. Initially, the readings were around +220mV. Then, from late May, the readings were more variable - ranging from +320mV to +512mV. It is difficult to pin down the cause of these fluctuations. I checked the calibration of my ORP meter from time to time using the Pinpoint +400mV solution.

JPC
 

jaypeecee

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We would really like to know both the Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD), and dissolved oxygen (%DO) content of our tank water, but they aren't easy to measure.
Hi Darrel,

I like to use an ORP/Redox meter for this purpose. From lots of empirical data, my experience is that ORP gives a quick-and-easy indication of dissolved oxygen/BOD. The meter dangling into the tank in the following thread is actually measuring ORP, not pH as the meter would have you believe!


JPC
 
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