Still losing fish, is it co2?

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Hi guys

Seem to still be losing fish on and off at odd times and no idea why. Still showing signs of buoyancy issues, even new tetras I got at the weekend are dying off and floating need the top.

Not sure why as params are fine and water change often.

Why would 3 or 4 turn ill overnight? I fed them last night and all fine, same amount of co2 all week, suddenly today 3/4 are dead?!?

80l tank with 30/40l sump but co2 only on around 1bps, not too much more than my nano tank!

Drop checker looks ok too? Ironic as people say dumps degas too!

Fish seem to gasp for air but others just float about or die.

Also treated water with two lots of anti fungal and bacterial solution.

Just frustrating. :(

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dcb8d24d84677abed7c82430fdfd53db.jpg





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Joined
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Sorry for your fishes.

If you think it's the CO2, why not stop for a week to rule it out? Algae risk or not, right now the focus should be on the fish.

If dropping the CO2 doesn't help, at least you know you need to look for the issue elsewhere.
 
Joined
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Sorry for your fishes.

If you think it's the CO2, why not stop for a week to rule it out? Algae risk or not, right now the focus should be on the fish.

If dropping the CO2 doesn't help, at least you know you need to look for the issue elsewhere.
Thanks SF

Yeah I mean I’ve halfed it already and had no deaths for about a week, so I’m pretty baffled by this. That’s why I’m so annoyed as it’s intermittent, doesn’t seem to be ‘one’ thing.

As you said I’ll leave co2 off now for a week and see if I lose any more, but the gaps in between have made things super hard to judge.

Two batches of fish, Rummy and Neons, both different types have each shown signs of fish bladder problems and inability to breathe. Just how fast these went is what’s thrown me - 3 in one day? With a 4th gasping in the video above.

Yet rest of the week since I’ve had them, no problems and all been feeding.


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Joined
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Also a note on water params - Rummy Nose are always blood red and swimming about fine.


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The fish looks like it is struggling to breathe.
It is hard to say what it is but whatever it is, is obstructing its breathing and could be caused by a range of things.

My first response would be a series of large water changes, starting with one really large, drain as much water as possible and remove any detritus from the filters. Then a daily water change as much as you can handle. If will help in all possible cases, i.e. bacterial, parasitic or water quality, etc..

By the way, what meds have you tried?
 
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The fish looks like it is struggling to breathe.
It is hard to say what it is but whatever it is, is obstructing its breathing and could be caused by a range of things.

My first response would be a series of large water changes, starting with one really large, drain as much water as possible and remove any detritus from the filters. Then a daily water change as much as you can handle. If will help in all possible cases, i.e. bacterial, parasitic or water quality, etc..

By the way, what meds have you tried?
Yeah it sure does.

I tried a LoveFish one? From Pets at home which said it covers all things. After using it things subsided really fast and nothing. Now this again...

Did a 90% one on Sunday and lost two Rummys the day after due to water param shock I think, that’s a huge amount to swap out.

Happy to do more constant changes if it doesn’t stress the fish. It does point to something deeper than co2 as I’m pretty aware of it now and how much each drop does, having had my nano for 3 years with co2 daily.

Circulation is good in the tank and sump has masses of filtration, all clean.

I wonder if some of the plants carried something in too, or the co2 gas itself? If it was plants it took months to show up.


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Did a 90% one on Sunday and lost two Rummys the day after due to water param shock
I'd consider this for now a coincidence.

Also, if one is able to cause a shock via a water change, it just means that the water quality in the tank is not up to standards. Do you have a TDS meter by any chance?

I wonder if some of the plants carried something in too, or the co2 gas itself? If it was plants it took months to show up.
If it is the gas, stopping it should stop the deaths.

Other than that, the pathogenic organisms that infect fish are present in all tanks. They're only dangerous when fish's immune system is weak, high CO2 is a constant stressor and a range of other stuff can contribute to an outbreak as well.
 
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I'd consider this for now a coincidence.

Also, if one is able to cause a shock via a water change, it just means that the water quality in the tank is not up to standards. Do you have a TDS meter by any chance?



If it is the gas, stopping it should stop the deaths.

Other than that, the pathogenic organisms that infect fish are present in all tanks. They're only dangerous when fish's immune system is weak, high CO2 is a constant stressor and a ranger of other stuff.
I don’t think I do have a TDS meter no :/ could buy one. I’ll have a dog as I did get something to test water hardness in the tap.

Just odd as my tank uses same water supply and it’s been no problem at all, and likewise with how long the fish have been totally fine for so long. The fact so many died at once since yesterday has thrown me.

I am using the lush max ferts again, but Andy assured me ferts don’t harm fish unless extremes.

Can’t understand how much many fish are swimming ok when a set few all went at once.

A tad odd too as I got 24 neons st the weekend and now I can only count about 13, but no sign of the others anywhere.


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When illness hits a tank it's like that, mysterious.
Also, it almost always seems to be species specific. Even tolerance to ammonia, CO2, oxygen levels is species specific and so are diseases although diseases can eventually spread to other species if there are too many fish infected, but a particular species is always the weakest link
 
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Sorry, forgot to ask, do you have a KH test at least? Make sure that hasn't dropped to zero, gasping is what happens when that drops. It is accompanied by high TDS levels vs tap water, hence I asked. Also, is your water soft?
 
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When illness hits a tank it's like that, mysterious.
Also, it almost always seems to be species specific. Even tolerance to ammonia, CO2, oxygen levels is species specific and so are diseases although diseases can eventually spread to other species if there are too many fish infected, but a particular species is always the weakest link
Yeah fair point actually, it has been Rummy Nose and Neons, both mysteriously disappearing.

Ottos, loaches and pleco seem ok. Shrimp etc. even the Rummys that haven’t been infected. If it’s breathing and floating still it would be swim bladder disease presumably?


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Also, looking for info on the LoveFish med ingredients you mentioned, I came across this:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/whats-on/owners-fury-killer-fish-cleaner-1197202

Davos Wintel, from Cirencester, claims the I Love Fish Fungus Treatment product sold by pet supplies retailer Pets at Home, is responsible for the sudden death of his entire tank of goldfish.

At least eleven customers have left feedback claiming it is responsible for the abrupt deaths of their exotic fish.

But another disgruntled customer said on the company's website he became alarmed when he used the product and "watched helplessly" as his fish "turned pale and sank lethargically to the gravel with their collapsed fins".

Another customer's feedback reads: "Awful AWFUL product. I feel terrible that I didn't do my research before on this product. Why is this even on the shelves?!"

Posting this just in case your initial issue was something else and it got escalated by the use of the med.

 

mort

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Sorry you are having this trouble. Sciencefiction is covering most bases nicely but a quick thought of mine is 24 neons is a lot to add at one time and if you are buying them from p@h then they get lots of poor quality fish from their supplier and if its like the one near me they have a policy of putting all the sick fish in one tank, moving them from other racks (ie no disease control at all). So my suggestion would be either an initial ammonia problem after adding them or they brought something in with them. In truth today neons aren't particularly hardy compared to what they used to be and cardinals, the old weaker cousin, tend to be a much better quality fish. I'd follow the advice above and keep doing water changes and leave the co2 off and see if things settle down but be prepared for the need to medicate.
 
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Sorry you are having this trouble. Sciencefiction is covering most bases nicely but a quick thought of mine is 24 neons is a lot to add at one time and if you are buying them from p@h then they get lots of poor quality fish from their supplier and if its like the one near me they have a policy of putting all the sick fish in one tank, moving them from other racks (ie no disease control at all). So my suggestion would be either an initial ammonia problem after adding them or they brought something in with them. In truth today neons aren't particularly hardy compared to what they used to be and cardinals, the old weaker cousin, tend to be a much better quality fish. I'd follow the advice above and keep doing water changes and leave the co2 off and see if things settle down but be prepared for the need to medicate.
Thanks guys for the help.

Fish were bought elsewhere and I have heavily planted setup with a large filter and using Amazonia too so filter is pretty setup really. No spikes I detected before but I’ll do another test tomorrow pm.

Thanks for the tips I’ll try and test KH too sciencef, just Incase.

Will report back and see what best med would be to use. Pretty confused still as just seems to go up and down.

Although I can’t rate P@h either, their meds didn’t obviously make things worse for me. Ingredient wise it smelt a little like a more natural disinfectant and perhaps it wasn’t strong enough. I presume the other brands on the shelves have a bit more precision regarding what they treat and you pay more for that too!


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alto

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It doesn’t look like a CO2 issue in the video

It does look as if fish is struggling for oxygen (except this isn’t an unusual symptom at end of life from various causes), it is struggling for balance but again this isn’t unusual at end of life (from various causes)

Most fish pathogens have a primary “target” but also migrate through the fish and can cause an assortment of symptoms/damage along the way, eg, Columnaris usually infiltrates gill tissue at start (and some remains in that area), then often progresses to the heart (some fish die from heart damage rather than the respiratory damage), then muscle tissue (the classic “saddle” lesion occurs much later in the disease progression, though most people don’t suspect Columnaris until this stage) etc - as fish approach death, they lose ability to control body movements

I doubt the possible disease in your tank is linked to plant purchase (plants are more likely a source of toxins such as herbicides, pesticides and death tends to be quite rapid)
Something leaching from the substrate would be more likely (what substrate is in tank?)

Most probable disease source is other fish - new fish bringing something home (quarantine for minimum 2 weeks though 4-6 is better) or sharing potential pathogens which then develop into a disease state re stressed fish have significantly depressed immune systems - this transfer can go both ways between old/new fish

I suggest a daily journal - this can help clarify disease progress, note fish behaviour, activity, respiration rate, food response, place in water column etc, etc
If you’ve some sort of test kit or TDS etc, then include those values
Include routines as well, water changes, food changes ...

You don’t mention pleco size or shrimp number or snails? any or all of these will quickly disappear a neon corpse

If you’ve been buying neons, replacing neons - they may be the disease source
Example, neon tetra disease can decimate a shoal very quickly or chronically, in the former, the outward appearance tends to be very distinctive, if the latter, the colour loss pattern is not particularly strong and some fish will die without showing any colour loss at all

Treatment
The only disease which is easily treated (especially in home aquaria) is external parasites - and most stressed or ill fish will develop high counts (even as secondary complication) ... so follow a good protocol for external parasite treatment, wait 5-7 days, then repeat

As an example, read Seachem’s treatment protocols for
MetroPlex
Active ingredients: metronidazole (70%) Inactive ingredients: excipients (30%)
https://www.seachem.com/metroplex.php
Note the 14-28 days treatment period (Ich & Velvet)

PolyGuard
Active ingredients: sulfathiazole (36%), malachite green (1.9%), nitrofurantoin (0.14%), nitrofural (0.14%), quinacrine dihydrochloride (0.27%). Inactive ingredients: excipients (61%)
https://www.seachem.com/polyguard.php
Ich 14 days

I realize you likely don’t have access to Seachem medications, but take note of their information availability and look for similar transparency from whichever company you choose (call & demand technical support)

Cheaper medications are often (much) less pure, lower activity etc, some are black market; always choose a reputable company/brand
 
Joined
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Messages
429
Location
Devon
It doesn’t look like a CO2 issue in the video

It does look as if fish is struggling for oxygen (except this isn’t an unusual symptom at end of life from various causes), it is struggling for balance but again this isn’t unusual at end of life (from various causes)

Most fish pathogens have a primary “target” but also migrate through the fish and can cause an assortment of symptoms/damage along the way, eg, Columnaris usually infiltrates gill tissue at start (and some remains in that area), then often progresses to the heart (some fish die from heart damage rather than the respiratory damage), then muscle tissue (the classic “saddle” lesion occurs much later in the disease progression, though most people don’t suspect Columnaris until this stage) etc - as fish approach death, they lose ability to control body movements

I doubt the possible disease in your tank is linked to plant purchase (plants are more likely a source of toxins such as herbicides, pesticides and death tends to be quite rapid)
Something leaching from the substrate would be more likely (what substrate is in tank?)

Most probable disease source is other fish - new fish bringing something home (quarantine for minimum 2 weeks though 4-6 is better) or sharing potential pathogens which then develop into a disease state re stressed fish have significantly depressed immune systems - this transfer can go both ways between old/new fish

I suggest a daily journal - this can help clarify disease progress, note fish behaviour, activity, respiration rate, food response, place in water column etc, etc
If you’ve some sort of test kit or TDS etc, then include those values
Include routines as well, water changes, food changes ...

You don’t mention pleco size or shrimp number or snails? any or all of these will quickly disappear a neon corpse

If you’ve been buying neons, replacing neons - they may be the disease source
Example, neon tetra disease can decimate a shoal very quickly or chronically, in the former, the outward appearance tends to be very distinctive, if the latter, the colour loss pattern is not particularly strong and some fish will die without showing any colour loss at all

Treatment
The only disease which is easily treated (especially in home aquaria) is external parasites - and most stressed or ill fish will develop high counts (even as secondary complication) ... so follow a good protocol for external parasite treatment, wait 5-7 days, then repeat

As an example, read Seachem’s treatment protocols for
MetroPlex

https://www.seachem.com/metroplex.php
Note the 14-28 days treatment period (Ich & Velvet)

PolyGuard

https://www.seachem.com/polyguard.php
Ich 14 days

I realize you likely don’t have access to Seachem medications, but take note of their information availability and look for similar transparency from whichever company you choose (call & demand technical support)

Cheaper medications are often (much) less pure, lower activity etc, some are black market; always choose a reputable company/brand
Thank you, this is super helpful.

I have a spare 40l tank too - worth using that at all to try and monitor and diagnose?

Other fish not huge but have some large Amano Shrimp, a couple in the tank and around. Two keep going over my guards and into the sump which is a real pain. I’m considering using a filter again instead of a sump as it’s a bit of a nightmare in terms of overflow rate and keeping it topped up, and keep the grill small.

Neons could be a source you’re right, but the Rummy Nose we’re passing things around for a while and I was losing them until I treated and did a huge water change. Since then it’s been much better, but now these tetras seem to be unhappy and dying off again too a few weeks on after being added.

Substrate is just marine coral sand and Amazonia. Freshly bought.

Wood has been in other tanks before but been cleaned and soaked for weeks before using and I started the tank emersed too.

Will do some readings tonight.

Is it better to try and flash the water column with UV and do some heavy water changes?

Thank you




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Kalum

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Marine coral sand.....

This will be buffering your water pretty high and alkaline (probably above 8 unless really old) and tetras should ideally be kept in acidic water and low ph.

They might have been reared in hard water but I would still guess that they wouldn't thrive in a high ph environment when compared to low
 

alto

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24 Dec 2014
Messages
5,884
Marine coral sand.....

This will be buffering your water pretty high and alkaline (probably above 8 unless really old)
Maybe yes, maybe no
Using the same product - Carib Sea Indo Pacific Black and Bimini Pink - first lot barely brought my pH to 7.0 (from 6.0-6.4 taps)
* note I only used small amounts for “beach” or as a substrate additive to hopefully provide some KH in a more stable manner than powder additives at water change

Then abandoned my tanks for a few years as other things took priority

Went right out and bought the (assumed) same product (slightly updated bag photo), from the same shop, set up tanks and watched :eek: :eek: :eek: as my pH headed 9wards and stayed there
That was a fun return to Aquariums :rolleyes:
 
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