Still losing fish, is it co2?

alto

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Is it better to try and flash the water column with UV and do some heavy water changes?
If you already own the UV, it can’t hurt but it’s likely worth buying a new UV bulb (depending upon age and use, especially ON/OFF events)
Unfortunately most aquarium grade UV’s lack the intensity, or intensity + dwell time, to do significant damage to any of the common fish pathogens - though they can be useful for water clarity :)

Marine sand can be very good at binding medications (eg copper is always a concern but this is only likely to be released at levels that affect shrimp, not fish), “inactive” parasite stages can also go underground as it were in the sand (likely coincidental to sand sifting/shifting movement rather than as a survival strategy ... except it rather looks as if certain strains of Columnaris might be doing just that with respect to natural water sludge environments)
Sooooo I always harbour a certain suspicion of sands ... but would not encourage you to replace yours
You should check for any pH, GH, KH effects

but the Rummy Nose we’re passing things around for a while and I was losing them until I treated and did a huge water change
In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)
Hikari BiFuran is a med of choice (for the home Aquarist, note that a similar, differently branded formulation is nowhere near as effective and much more stressful to fish - but I suspect you can source neither, though it’s always worth checking with your vet (again regulations vary))
http://www.hikariusa.com/water_quality_folder/bifuran.html
It doesn’t “cure” Columnaris but it significantly improves survival rates

Soft acidic water, lots of water changes, lots of water/fish, no substrate (re C’s ability to slowly “tick over” in sludge environs - though I’m doubtful this happens in a well planted, good circulation, frequent water change aquarium substrate), lower temperature 22-23C all act to improve mortality rates for Columnaris infected fish
As mentioned previously, any stressor (for fish), can dramatically reduce survival rates (resistance to infection, ability to develop a rapid and effective immune response against the Horde of potential pathogens that are part of normal Fish Life)
Fish should show no signs of anything but perfect health for at least 2 months, before assuming that Columnaris is absent rather than just being held at bay by fish immune system (change something so fish become stressed and suddenly you’re back to identifiably ill fish)

Maybe this is what’s happening in your tank, maybe not ... without sacrificing fish for necropsy you can’t know (& you still need sufficient numbers for this to reliably represent a group)
It’s equally likely that new fish just came with new friends/old enemies

As for the 40L tank, although a bare tank is optimum for monitoring & controlling pathogens, fish stress level may be equally important
Some fish species/groups appear very relaxed in bare tanks with suitable (dim) lighting (vibrations and any “looming” predators also act as significant stressors) and sufficient numbers, others maintain considerable stress levels regardless (imagine recently wild caught altums)
If tank is long and narrow with sufficient swimming space, it may be worth a go - Neons are usually much more comfortable in smaller glass boxes than Rummy’s


Two keep going over my guards and into the sump which is a real pain.
So let ‘em live there ;)


In Summary
You can’t go wrong with large frequent water changes
Reduce temperature to lowest manageable, looking at possible Rummy species, I’d choose 22-23C - this should slow everything down and allow you and fish time to “breath” (Neons are more adaptable in this regard)
Vacuum substrate, remove visible debris as much as possible
Keep filter as clean as possible (eg weekly prefilter change)
Feed little, often
If it’s possible to reduce light intensity without triggering plant unhappiness, then do that as well - though happy plants generally mean happy fish ... you might just reduce length of photoperiod instead and come out ahead

If after 3-5 days (with water changes), Rummy’s are looking decidedly unhappy, slowly increase temp to find the lowest they are “happy”

I would maintain the status quo for at least 4 months before bringing in any new fish
Plan to quarantine fish before adding to community
Some people will move a few community tank fish to the Q tank for a couple weeks before finally adding new fish to main tank (but again the Q tank needs to provide a suitable environment)
 
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Thanks for super in-depth info alto much appreciated :)

Tempted to try and eheim pro filter instead of a sump and simplify that aspect at least. I think a filter might be easier to manage in terms of less things to go wrong and contain infection.

How can I clear the infection or know when that’s done? Will constant water changes eventually clear the infected pathogens?


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If you already own the UV, it can’t hurt but it’s likely worth buying a new UV bulb (depending upon age and use, especially ON/OFF events)
Unfortunately most aquarium grade UV’s lack the intensity, or intensity + dwell time, to do significant damage to any of the common fish pathogens - though they can be useful for water clarity :)

Marine sand can be very good at binding medications (eg copper is always a concern but this is only likely to be released at levels that affect shrimp, not fish), “inactive” parasite stages can also go underground as it were in the sand (likely coincidental to sand sifting/shifting movement rather than as a survival strategy ... except it rather looks as if certain strains of Columnaris might be doing just that with respect to natural water sludge environments)
Sooooo I always harbour a certain suspicion of sands ... but would not encourage you to replace yours
You should check for any pH, GH, KH effects


In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)
Hikari BiFuran is a med of choice (for the home Aquarist, note that a similar, differently branded formulation is nowhere near as effective and much more stressful to fish - but I suspect you can source neither, though it’s always worth checking with your vet (again regulations vary))
http://www.hikariusa.com/water_quality_folder/bifuran.html
It doesn’t “cure” Columnaris but it significantly improves survival rates

Soft acidic water, lots of water changes, lots of water/fish, no substrate (re C’s ability to slowly “tick over” in sludge environs - though I’m doubtful this happens in a well planted, good circulation, frequent water change aquarium substrate), lower temperature 22-23C all act to improve mortality rates for Columnaris infected fish
As mentioned previously, any stressor (for fish), can dramatically reduce survival rates (resistance to infection, ability to develop a rapid and effective immune response against the Horde of potential pathogens that are part of normal Fish Life)
Fish should show no signs of anything but perfect health for at least 2 months, before assuming that Columnaris is absent rather than just being held at bay by fish immune system (change something so fish become stressed and suddenly you’re back to identifiably ill fish)

Maybe this is what’s happening in your tank, maybe not ... without sacrificing fish for necropsy you can’t know (& you still need sufficient numbers for this to reliably represent a group)
It’s equally likely that new fish just came with new friends/old enemies

As for the 40L tank, although a bare tank is optimum for monitoring & controlling pathogens, fish stress level may be equally important
Some fish species/groups appear very relaxed in bare tanks with suitable (dim) lighting (vibrations and any “looming” predators also act as significant stressors) and sufficient numbers, others maintain considerable stress levels regardless (imagine recently wild caught altums)
If tank is long and narrow with sufficient swimming space, it may be worth a go - Neons are usually much more comfortable in smaller glass boxes than Rummy’s



So let ‘em live there ;)


In Summary
You can’t go wrong with large frequent water changes
Reduce temperature to lowest manageable, looking at possible Rummy species, I’d choose 22-23C - this should slow everything down and allow you and fish time to “breath” (Neons are more adaptable in this regard)
Vacuum substrate, remove visible debris as much as possible
Keep filter as clean as possible (eg weekly prefilter change)
Feed little, often
If it’s possible to reduce light intensity without triggering plant unhappiness, then do that as well - though happy plants generally mean happy fish ... you might just reduce length of photoperiod instead and come out ahead

If after 3-5 days (with water changes), Rummy’s are looking decidedly unhappy, slowly increase temp to find the lowest they are “happy”

I would maintain the status quo for at least 4 months before bringing in any new fish
Plan to quarantine fish before adding to community
Some people will move a few community tank fish to the Q tank for a couple weeks before finally adding new fish to main tank (but again the Q tank needs to provide a suitable environment)
Would activate carbon along with water changes help in the removal of water born pathogens do you think?

This is interesting

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es061282r?journalCode=esthag


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alto

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Caught a glimpse of another neon on his way during a water change. This is the kinda thing they’ve been doing even the Rummy Nose before were the same

https://streamable.com/2psoc

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To me this movement is really just indicative of a very weak fish
More interesting is the gills, which appear very red and open (swollen or flared, not easy to discern in video) - note this symptom may also appear just prior to death as fish is struggling for oxygen, but this fish has notably red gill tissue
Fins are not clamped - which they generally are with (skin) parasites such ich and velvet
Very erect/wide spread fins are something I associate with bacterial infections (& possibly viral infections - but not iridovirus (which are among the most common fish viral infections))


Are you certain there is no Nitrite issue in your aquarium?

Ammonia at the level to create a gill response like that would be deteriorating fins
The clean looking fins of fish in that video are interesting as there appears to be no damage, is this typical of all fish in the aquarium?
 

alto

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Will constant water changes eventually clear the infected pathogens?
Optimum water quality is just there to maximize fish health
- though it can have a diluting effect on pathogen levels as well

Ill fish, especially in the 24-36h before death, “shed” loads of parasites - there’s a paper somewhere (though not public access as I recall) showing pathogens departing the dying host
For this reason, I’d remove any fish such as the Neon in videoclip to the 40L
 

alto

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Would activate carbon along with water changes help in the removal of water born pathogens do you think?

This is interesting

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es061282r?journalCode=esthag

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I’d be surprised if this applied to common fish pathogens

Activated carbon (look for high quality marine grade) would be fine to add to your filter, manufacturer will suggest suitable amount per water volume, I’d replace frequently (ie not every 2 months)
 
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To me this movement is really just indicative of a very weak fish
More interesting is the gills, which appear very red and open (swollen or flared, not easy to discern in video) - note this symptom may also appear just prior to death as fish is struggling for oxygen, but this fish has notably red gill tissue
Fins are not clamped - which they generally are with (skin) parasites such ich and velvet
Very erect/wide spread fins are something I associate with bacterial infections (& possibly viral infections - but not iridovirus (which are among the most common fish viral infections))


Are you certain there is no Nitrite issue in your aquarium?

Ammonia at the level to create a gill response like that would be deteriorating fins
The clean looking fins of fish in that video are interesting as there appears to be no damage, is this typical of all fish in the aquarium?
Yeah all fish look like that and the Rummy Nose are so healthy and coloured up, as were the tetras on Wednesday. I saw the gill thing too and thought it odd. It must be the same for the others too - why would only some be displaying that though? Points to infection?

Ammonia is 0 in the water as is nitrite. Pretty baffling for me.

I’ve posted on my tank thread as I’ve redone my sump now so there’s much more directional flow.

All the fish are healthy looking and here is a video I took just on Wednesday, and Thursday was when I found 3 dead when I came home. They are well and none showed odd signs then.

I’ll look up my kit when I get back and see how many params I can test and will post on here.

https://streamable.com/zii5k

Thanks


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Gasping, odd swimming, whirling is very common in what we call pH shock.
It can happen if one has too soft water and goes further more acidic, KH drop and pH plummeting down but it can also happen in hard water when one has overfed, overstocked the tank and the KH drops, again followed by pH drop, known as old tank syndrome.
It can generally happen if your tank's water parameters for any reason are very different from the tap.

Alternatively, protozoa can also be involved, such as cryptobia. If your water parameters are stable, tank and tap are the same, the long shot is trying to treat with Waterlife octozin. But it is just a guess on my part. It is just something I would do in your situation but only after eliminating water quality as an issue.

If your tank is not overstocked, you change good amount of water weekly as a rule,and the parameters are stable, etc.. the causes are less likely to be bacterial and more likely protzoan or worm type related. Bacterial diseases are often secondary to either poor water quality or some sort of parastic infection damaging the fish's defense mechanisms. In cleaner water, I think in terms of worms and parasites. In dirty water, bacteria, and in fact in dirty tanks bacterial and fungal diseases are common, I call it the newbie syndrome.
 
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Gasping, odd swimming, whirling is very common in what we call pH shock.
It can happen if one has too soft water and goes further more acidic, KH drop and pH plummeting down but it can also happen in hard water when one has overfed, overstocked the tank and the KH drops, again followed by pH drop, known as old tank syndrome.
It can generally happen if your tank's water parameters for any reason are very different from the tap.

Alternatively, protozoa can also be involved, such as cryptobia. If your water parameters are stable, tank and tap are the same, the long shot is trying to treat with Waterlife octozin. But it is just a guess on my part. It is just something I would do in your situation but only after eliminating water quality as an issue.

If your tank is not overstocked, you change good amount of water weekly as a rule,and the parameters are stable, etc.. the causes are less likely to be bacterial and more likely protzoan or worm type related. Bacterial diseases are often secondary to either poor water quality or some sort of parastic infection damaging the fish's defense mechanisms. In cleaner water, I think in terms of worms and parasites. In dirty water, bacteria, and in fact in dirty tanks bacterial and fungal diseases are common, I call it the newbie syndrome.
I’ll get some readings for you tomorrow mate, appreciate your input here all sounds very feasible.

Water quality I’ve been changing 90% weekly so not sure on that one. I did see small worms a few weeks ago but online said harmless, not seen many since.

I found with so much javafern that it was hard to monitor if it was dying in the water as it was traveling in the post for so long too. Water has been fairly green for some while too after just a couple of days of dosing ferts.

Are fertilizers definitely not able to cause harm to the fish in relatively small doses, say 4ml in this instance daily.


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Water quality I’ve been changing 90% weekly so not sure on that one. I did see small worms a few weeks ago but online said harmless, not seen many since.
You will not see the protozoa or worms I mentioned with a naked eye. It is normal in a tank to have some odd creatures which are not parasitic in nature, neither did they come from the fish or will infect fish.

Posting water parameters would be great to rule out possible causes.

Are fertilizers definitely not able to cause harm to the fish in relatively small doses, say 4ml in this instance daily.
Not directly, not the actual chemical but accumulation of unused ferts leads to rise in TDS. Rise and drop in TDS can cause TDS shock and having a TDS meter to monitor tank and incoming water can prevent that. Water changes should be always enough to prevent that or the dosing should be careful not to allow massive increase... Many plant keepers end up with much higher TDS than their tap water or water used for water changes. Then they do a 90% water change.....guess what happens to the fishes....
 
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Water has been fairly green for some while too after just a couple of days of dosing ferts
Green water is caused by elevated ammonia levels accompanied by light. The algae in the water is consuming it, turning it green. I did not see your water being green at all on the videos...What ferts are you dosing? Make sure they don't have any ammonium/urea in them.
 
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Green water is caused by elevated ammonia levels accompanied by light. The algae in the water is consuming it, turning it green. I did not see your water being green at all on the videos...What ferts are you dosing? Make sure they don't have any ammonium/urea in them.
They are the Lush Max ones from Andy on here. I don’t want to point the blame at him every time so apologies Andy! I’m just trying to rule everything out here and the ferts are a common additive for me recently. I’ll try using different ones for a while as I have micro macro ones too I use on my other tank.


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Just check the ingredients. I doubt it they have urea but it's something to rule out as it will obviously affect water quality. The green water may not be from the ferts at all. I am not sure what the med you used recently contained but it may have wiped out some of your good bacteria depending on the ingredients. Unfortunately I could not find anything about it.
 

alto

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Green water is caused by elevated ammonia levels accompanied by light.
Why do you say this?
:confused:
(I’ve seen this posted by others as well and always wonder at the statement)

Green Water is an annual occurrence here (shop tanks as well as my own (& friends etc)), as it occurs naturally in the giant ponds our tap water comes from.

GW also occurs in the dimly lit as well as brightly lit tanks ... though perhaps your “accompanied by light” presumes ANY light.

While there may be measurable ammonia in the Reservoirs, there is certainly no measurable ammonia in my home aquaria, not even during my “pea soup” adventures
 
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though perhaps your “accompanied by light” presumes ANY light.
Yes, any light

While there may be measurable ammonia in the Reservoirs, there is certainly no measurable ammonia in my home aquaria, not even during my “pea soup” adventures
I don't think of ammonia as only being present when the test says so. Ammonia is present in a tank 24/7. It is either converted by the micro-organisms in the tank or it is being consumed by algae and plants.The level goes up and down and in a stable tank it should never be high enough to come up on a test. In a non-planted tank subjected to a rise in nitrogenous waste you get algae, in the form of green water or diatoms, worse case scenario BBA.

I used to have a deep green water guppy tank, not much water changed, no filter, near the window back in the day. I'd say that's what kept my fish alive...the algae in the water and biofilm on the glass, that I never cleaned...
 

alto

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Gasping, odd swimming, whirling is very common in what we call pH shock.
It can happen if one has too soft water and goes further more acidic, KH drop and pH plummeting down but it can also happen in hard water when one has overfed, overstocked the tank and the KH drops, again followed by pH drop, known as old tank syndrome.
It can generally happen if your tank's water parameters for any reason are very different from the tap.
Again I’m somewhat sceptical

I’ve unbagged thousands of transship fish, most of which are coming out of (far) less than optimum bag conditions, also often dissimilar water parameters and this type of response is rare (as in, I’ve observed it a few times over 4-5 years)

Generally, very distressed fish will just remain on the bottom of the tank, unmoving except for extended, slow gill movements - left in dark overnight, they are almost always up and about, looking remarkably normal the next morning.
Sometimes these fish will show symptoms of external parasites (ich remains the most likely) the next day and receive treatment

Those extended red gills are unlike anything commonly observed in transship fish (re this group of fish obviously experiences considerable and common water parameter “shock”)

@Something Fishy
a possible useful read
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077
 
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Just check the ingredients. I doubt it they have urea but it's something to rule out as it will obviously affect water quality. The green water may not be from the ferts at all. I am not sure what the med you used recently contained but it may have wiped out some of your good bacteria depending on the ingredients. Unfortunately I could not find anything about it.
This is the one mate http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/love-fish-fungus-treatment#


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