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Strange new growth on Echinodorus.

Sarpijk

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11 Jan 2015
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Hi all, a guy on Reddit has posted a pic of their Echinodorus which looks very strange. The plant has been moved from a high tech E.I tank to a low tech environment.

Could anyone give an educated guess as to what's happening?
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Hi all, a guy on Reddit has posted a pic of their Echinodorus which looks very strange. The plant has been moved from a high tech E.I tank to a low tech environment.

Could anyone give an educated guess as to what's happening?
90yFetp.jpg
Hi, this is actually my tank (I'm frummel on Reddit). Am following this post with greatest curiosity... Thanks Sarpijk for picking it up. Here's some higher resolution pics.
 

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My guess is it's a genetic mutation brought about by the change in environmental conditions.
Essentially the plant has develop into a money tree.
If that remains stable you'll have a queue of people wanting it. They can join the line behind me :lol:
In all seriousness beautiful plant and I'll be interested to find out what has caused it.
 
I have the exact same problem on what looks like the same plant, and my plant is dying, each time worse. I asked for help on barrreport, but was about to ask here as well. If you don't mind, later I'll post some pics of my plant.

Leaves started with those rectangular holes, but also new leaves started growing less and less, becoming really small and now new leaves are only an inch long, all twisted and full of holes.
This plant is my precious, I really want to save it
 
I had something like this in my bucephalandra, it is probably one of two things, firstly it could be what @ScareCrow mentioned. a genetic mutation brought on by stress. but it also could be a deficiency.
when I moved my buce to my low tech, it started growing these beautiful "variegated" leaves. I had one or two rhizomes of this. I moved it back to my high tech, and it promptly reverted back to normal growth.
once you have a baby plantlet or a runner from this plant, plant it back in the high tech, if it still exhibits the mutation then you;re on to something big.

on a slightly less related note, for a while I was trying to find variegation in some plants. I would cut off a leaf of the plant and let it grow callus tissue, from their some species can regrow a plantlet. the great part? callus tissue has a much higher rate of mutations. so if you have a few thousand leaves and the determination to find variegation youll probably come up with some nice plants. I used to know someone with quite a few plants produced like that. adding co2 from sparkling water can greatly increase the rate of shoots you get, more shoots=more chance of mutations.
rotala species, hygrophila, other stems work fairly well. best to use the weedy stuff.
I've taken a break from such madness, but I'm starting to think about getting the shallow callus ponds out, in hope of producing a variegated rotala macrandra.
this is the closest I've gotten to a variegated plant is this hyperhydrid hygrophila. it is fairly stable and grows very bushy.


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sorry for the barely related ramble. I"d been hoping to share this for a while.
 
As a molecular biologist, I can confidently rule out genetic mutation brought on by stress...
interesting. I always thought it was possible. from a plants perspective it would make sense, when conditions are not favourable, random mutations more suitable to grow in such conditions would succeed, I may be completely wrong though!
I found this
"Growing evidence shows that a variety of environmental stresses induce genomic instability in bacteria, yeast, and human cancer cells"
while it is about bacteria, yeast and cancer cells I thought it would be possible in plants. I'm not going to even pretend I understand most of the above article, but when I was experimenting with my callus tanks, tanks with poor conditions had the most hyperhydrid plants. low co2/ low light are what seemed to influence it the most.
 
Hi all,
I’ve no idea myself - @dw1305 might
No not something I've ever seen before either.

I'd guess that it is a nutrient deficiency of a <"non-mobile nutrient">. Options are iron (Fe), manganese (Mn), calcium (Ca), sulphur (S), boron (B), copper (Cu) & zinc (Zn). Manganese (Mn) might be an option?

cheers Darrel
 
Just to help rule in/rule out nutrient deficiencies, what levels are you dosing to the water column in this tank?
 
The tank the plant is in is a 54L (60x30x30cm) rearing tank holding 8 Paracheirodon Simulans, 8 Hyphessobrycon Cyanotaenia and 2 Amano shrimp. Plain tap water at 22°C, PH8.0, TDS at 360-370, weekly 50% water changes. No dosing, no CO2, a 10W 6500K LED under cabinet kitchen tube, light turned om 14 hours a day. The tank has been a fish holding tank and since rescaping my hi-tech tank I put a couple of plants form that tank in it. I bought the plant as Echinodorus 'Miracle' at a Dutch online retailer (who do not seem to sell it anymore). It has been in a hi-tech planted tank of 96L (60x40x40cm) for about a year, plain dechlorinated tap water at 24°C, PH7.4, EI-dosing, CO2 @ 30mg/l, weekly 50% water changes, Twinstar 600S (I) on sunrise and sunset, 10 hours total of which 7hours at 100%.

So the plant switched to a completely different environment overnight, that's one thing I am aware of.
These are my water parameters as provided by my tapwater supplier https://www.pwn.nl/sites/default/files/mensink_4e_kw_2021_internet_pwn.pdf

I did some experimenting with LEAN dosing about a year ago and my plants initially still grew like mad. Then I tested some parameters myself prior to adjusting my dosing routine and noticed there was quite some Potassium(Kalium) in the tapwater at the time. That made me decide to not dose Potassium at all and only dose Phosphorus, Nitrogen and Iron. The LEAN dosing experiment was a different tank that has nothing to do with the tanks mentioned above.
 
Hi all,
Then I tested some parameters myself prior to adjusting my dosing routine and noticed there was quite some Potassium(Kalium) in the tapwater at the time. That made me decide to not dose Potassium at all and only dose Phosphorus, Nitrogen and Iron.
It has been in a hi-tech planted tank of 96L (60x40x40cm) for about a year, plain dechlorinated tap water at 24°C, PH7.4, EI-dosing, CO2 @ 30mg/l, weekly 50% water changes,
The thing with the non-mobile elements is the plant can "store" them (via <"luxury uptake">). This is because it <"can't move them"> from old to new photosynthetic tissue.

I'm guessing that when you moved the plants from a complete nutrient to a low nutrient environment one of the non-mobile elements was deficient and pretty much instantly became Liebig's limiting nutrient. Normally iron (Fe) would be the prime suspect, but you are still adding that, so I'm going to guess it is one of the others, and possibly manganese (Mn).

cheers Darrel
 
I'll post my experience here, because I think it could probably be similar. Hopefully I can also get some help with my problem. I have this E. flame, not sure if that is the right name, which I bought as a small plantlet. At first, in my main tank, it never grew, but also didn't die, it was stuck as a plantlet for many months.

When the leaves started ageing and there were no replacements, I built a small plant-farm tank and put it there. For a while, it started growing for the first time, but at some point something went wrong in that tank and most of the plants either died or showed signs of distress. That's when the leaves started shwoing the holes. I think it got shadowed by the taller plants, so I moved it to an improvised shallow tank, where I put some plants in vases, thinking it would be easy to move them around.

At first, it started to show some real growth, it put out some longer leaves with no holes. But then something also went bad in this tank, and I assumed with all the plants growing a lot, there was more competition for nutrients, so I boosted fertilization, maybe too much. It didn't help, I had many plants melt and the holes showed up again. After a while, thinks normalized, the other plants started regenerating, but this echinodorus was still getting worse and worse. I now dig it up and let it floating on the previous tank, which is now going well again.

First picture is from when I moved it to a pot in the first place, the other two are recent pictures.
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