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Struggling a bit - can't work out why

aaron.c

aaron.c

Member
Joined
27 Mar 2013
Messages
359
Location
Manchester, United Kingdom
Howdy All

I have a Rio 125 High Tech and I am really struggling. I think I have got everything right, but the plants tell me otherwise.

I am after some ideas of where I might be going wrong and what I should try next. Please forgive the long post, but want to make sure I get everything in.

Tank: Rio 125 (Internal filter removed)
Lighting: 2 x Grobeam 600 and controller (mounted over tank on TMC brackets) @ 40%. Currently run from 17:30 to 23:59. With 30 minute ramp up and ramp down.
Filtration: JBL Cristal Profi 1501 - Via Spaybar
CO2: 2kg FE and Co2 Art Dual Stage Regulator.
Diffusion: Up Inline Atomiser
Top Up: Topped up with TMC Auto Topup - I did this to keep levels constant for CO2 balance.
Ferts: Standard EI, mixed with RO and double dosed (40ml every other day) via Dosing Pump.
Liquid CO2: 7ml a day
Water Changes: 50% once a week.
Substrate: JBL Aqua basis plus, topped of with JBL Manado.
Stock:
  • 10 Panda Cory
  • 4 Ottos
  • 5 Dwarf Neon Rainbows
  • 10 Harlequins
  • 12 Amano Shrimp.

So, the problems...

Algae - Limited to one really, but quite a lot of it. BBA on tank, on the wood and rock, and some on the slow plants.

Plants: The plants are generally struggling. Lack of growth is the main issue. I am not expert enough to diagnose many particular defficiencies. That said, some of the new growth is on the yellow side, which I believe could be an iron issue, more on that later.

CO2: The spray bars are a menace and require constant attention. They stay put, but they are forever getting blocked. I run filter wool in the filter to try and stop stuff getting to the spray bar. I can clean it completely with pipe cleaner and the next day half of the outlets will be comprimised. I think this is causing localised unstable CO2. Additionally, I hate the look of the CO2 bubbles.

The CO2 bubbles are getting to the bottom of the tank and fired to the back and round again. I am not convinced flow is the issue, as you actually see the Manado pelletes being carried accross the substrate sometimes.

CO2 comes on 3 hours before lights hit full power (they have a 30 minute ramp up from 5.30 to 6.00pm). I am observing a 1ph unit drop.

I can't really inject more CO2 - fish are already at limits.

I have a surface film on the tank a lot of the time.

What have I tried?
  • More ferts - treble dose of Micro - didn't really seem to improve anything. I had a massive shrimp die off over about 2 weeks, and I would not be surprised if this could have been the cause. These have since been replaced without issue.
  • More Light - Slowly built it up to 60% over several weeks. No improvement.
  • Flow - added a Koralia 900 below spray bar to try and limit affects of blocked spray bar (in case I don't notice it is blocked for a day or so).
  • CO2 - Tried injecting more CO2 and offsetting with more surface agitation.
  • Iron - Adding Seachem Iron to try and solve that deficiency, if that is indeed what it is.
  • New Ferts: Through out the old and ordered new from reputable source (as were previous)

Anything else?

Water:
Our water is very very soft here. PH is near 7 but KH and GH are virtually non existent. To counter this, I have been adding Seachem Alkaline buffer with new water to try and get some buffering capacity.

Heat:
The tank runs at about 24c - if the house gets very cold, or after a water change, it has been known to drop to about 22c. I don't really want to be another heater in there if I can avoid it.

Pictures:

Drop checker in bottom corner of tank.
large_IMG_2005.jpg


Drop Checker at top corner of tank
large_IMG_2006.jpg


FTS
large_IMG_2007.jpg


large_IMG_2008.jpg


Plants
large_IMG_2003.jpg


large_IMG_2004.jpg


large_IMG_2002.jpg


Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if you need more information or more pictures.

Thanks
Aaron
 
Last edited:
How long since tank start up?
(sorry I know I could go back & look for that info but it may help to have everything in one place)


Can you list plants?
Are these the same plants that began the tank?
Have you "lost" any plants?
Are the unplanted areas deliberate?
Have you been trimming & re-planting "tops" of the stem plants?

(I'm just thinking aloud here)
 
Thanks Alto :)

This tank has been set up for almost exactly a year now.

I removed quite a lot of dragon stone in the hope that it would allow the flow to circulate more effectively. This was 4 months or so ago.

The large areas of empty substrate are where I tried to get Pogostemon helferi to grow. I have had 15 plants from various sources and they all melted away to nothing.

At present I have;
Alternanthera rosaefolia
Hygrophila polysperma - affected by small leaves.
Riccia fluitans
Anubias Nana
Mosses
Limnophila Aromatica

Afraid I can remember the names of the rest.

I haven't been topping the tops off and replanting, as I haven't really been getting the plants to a state where I think they are healthy enough to do it. Is that wrong?

Thanks
 
Hi all,
aaron.c said:
Our water is very very soft here. PH is near 7 but KH and GH are virtually non existent.
Click to expand...
The new leaves look a bit pale. Because they are the new leaves, it is a non-mobile element, so it could be calcium (Ca) deficiency, if you aren't adding any calcium in your EI mix? Iron deficiency usually occurs in harder water, but iron (Fe) is also non-mobile.

It is unlikely to be a deficiency of nitrogen (N), potassium (K) or magnesium (Mg), because these are all mobile and you are adding EI.
aaron.c said:
I tried to get Pogostemon helferi to grow. I have had 15 plants from various sources and they all melted away to nothing.
Click to expand...
It didn't like me either, and I assume that it doesn't do well in soft water.
aaron.c said:
To counter this, I have been adding Seachem Alkaline buffer with new water to try and get some buffering capacity
Click to expand...
I'm not a great fan of these products, Seachem won't tell you what it is, but I'll tell you it is 95% some very expensive sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3).

To raise dKH you could try a small amount of "oyster shell chick grit", or use the chemicals listed at <"James' Planted Tank: re-mineralising RO"> (dKH calculations at the bottom of page).

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all, The new leaves look a bit pale. Because they are the new leaves, it is a non-mobile element, so it could be calcium (Ca) deficiency, if you aren't adding any calcium in your EI mix? Iron deficiency usually occurs in harder water, but iron (Fe) is also non-mobile.

It is unlikely to be a deficiency of nitrogen (N), potassium (K) or magnesium (Mg), because these are all mobile and you are adding EI. It didn't like me either, and I assume that it doesn't do well in soft water. I'm not a great fan of these products, Seachem won't tell you what it is, but I'll tell you it is 95% some very expensive sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3).

To raise dKH you could try a small amount of "oyster shell chick grit", or use the chemicals listed at <"James' Planted Tank: re-mineralising RO"> (dKH calculations at the bottom of page).

cheers Darrel
Click to expand...

Thanks Darrel

I don't add any additional calcium to my EI Mix.

According to United utiltiies - the average calcium value for our tap water here is 8.14 mg Ca/. The low is 6, and the high is 12.
 
Hi all,
aaron.c said:
According to United utiltiies - the average calcium value for our tap water here is 8.14 mg Ca/. The low is 6, and the high is 12.
Click to expand...
They are quite low calcium levels (my tap water is about 250 ppm Ca). I'd try adding a small amount of calcium. It won't green the yellow leaves up (it is non-mobile), but new leaves should be much darker green. If you don't want to go down the "chick grit" route, you can food grade "calcium chloride dihydrate" (CaCl.2H2O).
aaron.c said:
This tank has been set up for almost exactly a year now. I removed quite a lot of dragon stone in the hope that it would allow the flow to circulate more effectively.
Click to expand...
Obvious question then, was the growth better when you still had the Dragon stone in the tank?

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:
When the dragon stone was in the tank the only plants I really had were lots and lots of Polysperma to get some bio mass going.

It did grow better, but that is about all that was in there. I would say I removed about 60% of the dragon stone.
 
dw1305 said:
It didn't like me either, and I assume that it doesn't do well in soft water.
Click to expand...
except it does just fine in the local shop display tanks - tap water here is KH 0-1, GH 1-2 - shop does add some Seachem Equilibrium (1tsp/10 gal) weekly or the the Aquavitro equivalent but still water would definitely rate as "soft"
I believe that Pedro Rosa has soft water - I couldn't find it in the linked journal, but think it's mentioned elsewhere (or perhaps by tmiravent)
 
Hi all,
alto said:
except it does just fine in the local shop display tanks - tap water here is KH 0-1, GH 1-2 - shop does add some Seachem Equilibrium (1tsp/10 gal) weekly or the the Aquavitro equivalent but still water would definitely rate as "soft"
I believe that Pedro Rosa has soft water - I couldn't find it in the linked journal, but think it's mentioned elsewhere (or perhaps by tmiravent)
Click to expand...
OK not the soft water. I didn't try it in harder water, so it could have been light, nutrients, CO2 etc.

cheers Darrel
 
alto said:
my favorite phrase :D
Click to expand...
My least favourite ;)

I mix my EI solutions as per the AquariumPlantFood instructions below;

Macro Solution

Mix, Shake & Leave to Dissolve Overnight:

  • 4tsp Potassium Nitrate
  • 1tsp Potassium Phosphate
  • 6tsp Magnesium Sulphate
  • 500ml Water
Micro Solution

Mix, Shake & Leave to Dissolve Overnight:

  • 1tsp Chelated Trace Elements
  • 500ml Water
I tend to mix up 1l batches as I have 1 litre dosing containers.
 
Hi Aaron

How much surface agitation is going on
From the photos it looks like the spray bar is barely breaking the water surface add you mention adding a wave maker to help
What media is in the filter and how much of it?
too much media will really slow down the output flow, and in turn affect how nutrients and Co2 are distributed.

Paul
 
Hey Paul

There is quite a lot of surface agitation, without breaking or bubbling. See image below.

The Flow is pretty decent, it gets the CO2 bubbles to the bottom of the tank. Even moves the substrate around.

The bottom layer of the filter is full of ceramic media.
The middle layer has the outer sponges, but the inner has been removed (see here - http://www.jbl.de/images/container/w470_h282/60946.jpg)
The next layer has the middle sponge removed, and one of these in it's place - there is obviously space around the edge - http://cdn.idealo.com/folder/Produc...id/juwel-aquarium-cirax-bioflow-8-0-jumbo.jpg - this is what I used from old filter to get it started.
Top section has one layer of the foam removed (it comes in 2 layers) and a bag of purigen takes up half of the space.

Hard to explain but hopefully that makes sense

Thanks
large_IMG_2014.jpg
 
It almost looked like the surface was still in the original pictures and like surface scum, must be my old eyes!
Seems like flow isn't the problem from the latest pics.
sorry, can't suggest anything more than has already been said
Good luck
 
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