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Superman's 180ltr Rescape

aaronnorth

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TDI-line said:
Clark, just out of interest, but what camera do you use?

Your pics are crystal clear and very well defined.

do you run firefox? if so download this:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5673

you can then right click, properties and it tells you all the exif data - Taken off last FTS

Camera Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon PowerShot A710 IS
Image Date: 2009:05:12 22:02:42
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 8.3mm
CCD Width: 5.71mm
Exposure Time: 0.010 s (1/100)
Aperture: f/4.0
White Balance: Auto
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure Mode: Manual
 

Superman

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Bit of a shock tonight, I came home from work to find the drop checker bright yellow and most fish gassing. I think I got them just in time. Pointed the spray bar upwards and the koralia is bubbling away to increase oxygen levels in the tank. Phew!

I had increased the co2 to try and deal with staghorn algae, but that keeps coming back on the same leaves so will remove those.

I'm going to give the fish a night off from co2 but will test the co2 injection rate before I goto bed.
 

ceg4048

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Superman said:
Bit of a shock tonight, I came home from work to find the drop checker bright yellow and most fish gassing. I think I got them just in time. Pointed the spray bar upwards and the koralia is bubbling away to increase oxygen levels in the tank. Phew!
Clark, a CO2 overdose does not negatively affect oxygen levels. If anything the O2 levels can actually be higher as the plants produce more of it. The fish are not suffering from O2 loss, they are suffering a form of blood poisoning referred to as acidosis. Fish cannot use barometric pressure differences (i.e. exhale) to rid their body of CO2. They must use osmosis. Generally the concentration of CO2 in their blood is higher than the concentration of CO2 in the surrounding water, so the CO2 dissipates outwards across their gill membranes. If the water column CO2 level is higher than that of their bloodstream they cannot purge the blood of CO2 as it flows backwards from the water column into the blood. In effect their blood vessels become a dropchecker. The carbonic acid lowers the blood pH, which affects many of their systems. CO2 buildup is especially toxic to their nervous systems.

When your tank suffers from a CO2 toxicity you are wasting time and risking their lives by fooling with the spraybar or Koralia. Oxygen is not an issue. Do a massive water change to immediately lower the water column CO2 concentration so that the CO2 in their blood can move across the gills in the right direction and thereby purge their bodies of CO2 and carbonic acid. With individual specimens this can mean the difference between life and death. :wideyed:

Cheers,
 

Tony Swinney

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ceg4048 said:
Clark, a CO2 overdose does not negatively affect oxygen levels. If anything the O2 levels can actually be higher as the plants produce more of it. The fish are not suffering from O2 loss, they are suffering a form of blood poisoning referred to as acidosis. Fish cannot use barometric pressure differences (i.e. exhale) to rid their body of CO2. They must use osmosis. Generally the concentration of CO2 in their blood is higher than the concentration of CO2 in the surrounding water, so the CO2 dissipates outwards across their gill membranes. If the water column CO2 level is higher than that of their bloodstream they cannot purge the blood of CO2 as it flows backwards from the water column into the blood. In effect their blood vessels become a dropchecker. The carbonic acid lowers the blood pH, which affects many of their systems. CO2 buildup is especially toxic to their nervous systems.

When your tank suffers from a CO2 toxicity you are wasting time and risking their lives by fooling with the spraybar or Koralia. Oxygen is not an issue. Do a massive water change to immediately lower the water column CO2 concentration so that the CO2 in their blood can move across the gills in the right direction and thereby purge their bodies of CO2 and carbonic acid. With individual specimens this can mean the difference between life and death.

^^^This post should be a sticky ! More great info from Clive :D

I hope the fish have recovered this morning Clark

Tony
 

LondonDragon

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ceg4048 said:
When your tank suffers from a CO2 toxicity you are wasting time and risking their lives by fooling with the spraybar or Koralia. Oxygen is not an issue. Do a massive water change to immediately lower the water column CO2 concentration so that the CO2 in their blood can move across the gills in the right direction and thereby purge their bodies of CO2 and carbonic acid. With individual specimens this can mean the difference between life and death
Clive sometimes I see my fish at the top of the water gasping and some days I don't see them, the CO2 is dosed at the same rate and the flow does not change, is there a reason for this? They stop gasping soon after the CO2 is turned off when it happens, I have lowered the CO2 infection a little, but some days they still at the surface, mainly my Bosemani Rainbows, can this have a long term inpact on their health? cheers
 

ceg4048

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Hi Paulo,
I haven't been able to find results of any long term studies of CO2 induced acidosis in either marine or freshwater fish. It's had to tell without very stringently controlled tests whether exposure at certain levels has indirect effects that make the fish more susceptible to other hazards in the future or not. My fish seem to recover after a toxic episode, but of course fish die of so many things i can't really make any correlations between a particular episode and a subsequent fatality.

As far as the inconsistency of the fishes response from day to day there are many factors which contribute to this. The fish have a certain ability to adapt to the blood pH level. This adaptability includes the ability to buffer the blood in a similar way we use KH to buffer the water column. This may include carbonates or other compounds that result in a blood alkalinity increase. Their adaptability can depend on the availability of specific compounds that day, as well as their general health, so this could include food as well as water column components.

Even with a steady and consistent injection rate, the CO2 concentration level in the tank also varies day to day depending on the plant CO2 uptake rate and the photosynthesis rate that day. A change in bio-mass or in chlorophyll density or in nutrient uptake rate that day all have an effect.

Ambient barometric pressure also affects the partial pressure of the CO2 in the water column so this could affect the rate at which CO2 escapes from the water as well.

Different species have different levels of adaptability. I recall Barr mentioning that the larger the fish the less adaptable they are to high CO2 levels. Gasping at the surface allows better diffusion of blood CO2 across the gills into the air bubble gasped at the surface, which will have a lower concentration level of CO2. The air makes contact with the gills, so the difference in concentration level drives the CO2 from blood into the air.

In any case, combinations of these factors on any given day can cause mild to severe acidosis in any given specimen.

Cheers,
 

ceg4048

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SteveUK said:
Would I be correct in assuming that Paulo could be considered to be running his CO2 right on the threshold for his tank/livestock? Just trying to fully understand all of the science :)
Yeah, for those particular specimens he's running it at the margin. If Paulo wanted to back off for a greater margin of error he'd have to make other adjustments such as supplementing with liquid carbon or tweaking up flow/distribution, tweaking lighting down, and so forth - even turning off the gas much earlier, which many people don't consider. From Paulo's various threads it appears he maxes most things out so he's living on the edge, so to speak, for those particular fish. That doesn't mean that he is running at the limit for plant performance however, just at the limit of his fauna's physical tolerance.

I recall a G. Farmer thread some while back where he asked whether folks concentrated more on flora or fauna. Most come from a fauna background so they fret over the critters at the expense of the plant. This is not to say that a balance can't be struck, only that if your priority is fauna you'll never be able to probe the ultimate limits of your plants' genetic expression. Not just growth rate, but color, form and function. Delete the critters and you can find out just how deep Alice's Wonderland rabbit hole goes.... 8)

Only CO2 junkies/mad scientists need apply... :wideyed:

Cheers,
 

LondonDragon

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Clive those Bosemani will go back to the LFS very soon since no one wants them, then I can max things out a little more when it comes to CO2 hehe ;) I have reduced the lighting now and reduced on the ferts, I just noticed yesterday I was dosing the amount for a 1000 liter tank!! God knows how I got that totally wrong, how embarassing! HAHAHA
 

ceg4048

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Whoa, dude, 1000L dosage! :wideyed: You're even more over the top than I am. Shhh, better not mention this to the NO3 haters. I'm gonna submit a recommendation on your behalf to the EI Ultimate Ninja Extreme Academy. Respect. 8)

Cheers,
 

LondonDragon

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ceg4048 said:
Whoa, dude, 1000L dosage! :wideyed: You're even more over the top than I am. Shhh, better not mention this to the NO3 haters. I'm gonna submit a recommendation on your behalf to the EI Ultimate Ninja Extreme Academy. Respect. 8) Cheers,
Hahaha EI Ultimate Ninja Extreme Academy I like that!! I learned from the Master ;) I was getting some algae but I think that was more due to the amount of light and not being able to up the CO2 any further due to fauna, I have now brought down the lighting levels and and the dosing too to a more respectable amount, I think all the KNO3 was have a bad effect on the Bolbits and possibly the Blyxa and Helferi too.
 

Superman

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Sigh, things aren't going well.

I think I've picked too many slow grovers and staghorn algae is taking it's toll. Even though I try and keep on top, it keeps coming back. The problem is if I keep removing leaves that are infected, then I won't have anything left.

I need to increase plant mass quickly, I've turned down my photoperiod to 6 hours and I can't increase the co2 anymore as it's on the limit of the fish.

Whilst the E. Tenellus is growing, the older leaves get staghorn algae over it.

I'm going to have a proper clean of everything tonight to see how it goes.

The other problem is I'm on holiday soon for two weeks and would like to get some sort of balance before I go away.

It seems that I can't handle as tank of this size whereas the nano is working as I planned it, I'm not sure what's going wrong.

Any comments and/or suggestions would be welcome.
 

ceg4048

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Hi Clark,
Presumably the JBL Cristal Profi e1500 External is a 1500LPH rated filter? Is it possible that the lever is turned so that the flow is lower than max? If the fish are gassed and you're still getting staghorn this points to flow. Check your actual flow rate. It should be on the order of around 700LPH. If it's much less then there is blockage somewhere. Move the Koralia around to check for optimum placement.

Your photoperiod isn't as important as the intensity. Lower the intensity either by pulling a bulb, removing reflectors or shading the bulbs with opaque material.

2X or 3X per week water changes are in order. Also, are you certain the autodoser is working properly?

Cheers,
 

LondonDragon

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ceg4048 said:
Also, are you certain the autodoser is working properly?
I am having serious doubts about mine haha I did notice when I was dosing 40ml which is one minute on a timer, that sometimes it took 20 seconds or more for the liquid to start dropping in the tank, I have now upped it to two minutes rather and 80ml, and adjusted the mixture accordingly (Still have doubts how effective it is, I am going to use the remainder of the bottle and then test by dosing mannually another bottle and compare the differences).
 

Superman

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Yes Clive, it's rated as 1,500lph and I've never been sure about it giving anything good.
Tonight I've had a good clean of all hose pipes and connectors. Not sure if it's made a difference. It just doesn't seem to pull muck from the water column, the particles need to go really close to the intake for it to pull it in. I'll do a flow test tomorrow evening as I've been working on the tank for well over 5 hours!

Sometimes I'm not sure the automatic doser works as I'm never in when it does it. This week it has gone through all the liquid. I might try a bottle mix and add manually as I dose my nano each morning.

Could anyone recommend a nice fast growing stem that'll fit into the style I'm trying to get to?
 
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