Taking a sump. Back in five minutes...

SRP3006

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
572
Location
GB
It absolutely amazes me how you can blast the anubias with so much light and for them to respond so well and not be covered with algae. Mine always look so poor in comparison.
Pure inspiration.
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
It absolutely amazes me how you can blast the anubias with so much light and for them to respond so well and not be covered with algae.

Path of Co2 mist:

1593630772673.jpeg


Also try to encourage their roots into the soil. Plenty of Co2, access to nutrients in the soil and water column... Light no problem.

Just don’t add biscuits and should be fine 😂
 

SRP3006

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
572
Location
GB
So aiming to cover the slow growing epiphytes with co2 mist is giving them unrivalled access to the co2 in the tank. I will try to set up future tanks with this in mind They have always been a problem for me to be honest. Thanks for the explanation.
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
Quick update:

1594588481880.jpeg


Finally seem to have the reins back on this setup. Not going to sugar coat it, it has been quite challenging to handle all the algae issues. In a way it has been fun to have the challenge though. As predicted there’s BBA remaining, but it’s no longer progressing, so it’s a matter of time moving forward as will hassle it until it’s done for.

The increase in light with EI payed off with the stems to get them to grow themselves out of trouble. The lower portions that were affected have been removed and the tops replanted.

Will get the Pinnatifida back to its former glory next by adjusting the fertilisation to a leaner spec. The stems are at just the right height after a chop and replant as well so coloured up, compact and slower growth from leaner fertilisation would be ideal going forward.

Working with tap water here is either a blessing or a curse depending on what you’re trying to accomplish.

Tap parameters in ppm (based on water report averages):

NO3 23.7
PO4 1.51
K 11.3
Mg 8.84
Fe 0.012

As you can see NO3 and Mg already come out at EI levels. Great for EI fertilisation.

For leaner dosing... Halving the nitrate (along with everything else) with RO/Tap 50/50 mix makes honing in on specific parameters easy. However, currently sitting on the fence about going back to RO.
 

Jayefc1

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2017
Messages
2,181
Location
Swadlincote
Dont do it remember how it was draining the fun from the tank it's looking good now and it will drive you nuts again lol it's been through a lot this little tank when you consider how hard it was pushed at the beginning and still is with those two onfs on it you crazy fool then going from RO to tap and biscuit gate it's amazing it's not crashed all together just testament to your green fingers and commitment that it is flourishing the way it is you know I'm right
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
I suppose the other workaround @Jayefc1 is to extend out water changes to 10-12 days to steadily diminish the nitrate in the water column. It would be a cycle between every water change though and not consistent - NO3 trending downwards.

That would be a risk to try and also presumes the water report is accurate... the average is worked out from 53 samples with the range of NO3 standing at 11.5ppm lowest to 35.8ppm highest, setting an mean average of 23.7ppm. It’s also from last year which is why I hate this, “I know what’s going on” mentality... do you heck and I’m certainly not exempt.

Dosing no NO3 over 10-12 days should at least ensure whatever is going on in the tank, the nitrate is steadily trending towards decreasing between water changes. It just seems like a lot of instability/uncertainty for the temptation of coloured up and compact growth.

You’re right though, RO ruined all the love before.

It would be far more simple to apply EI, accept different colouration, faster growth and more trimming.
 

LondonDragon

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
21 Feb 2008
Messages
11,017
Location
London
Dosing no NO3 over 10-12 days should at least ensure whatever is going on in the tank, the nitrate is steadily trending towards decreasing between water changes. It just seems like a lot of instability/uncertainty for the temptation of coloured up and compact growth.
I also back out from this on my tank, but I am now considering no NO3 adition to my mix again at the next batch to see if I can get the rotala to turn red! choices choices!!
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
but I am now considering no NO3 adition to my mix again at the next batch to see if I can get the rotala to turn red!

Freshly planted with new soil can make this difficult. It’s much easier with soil that is spent as you can rely on the water column being the controlling influence. I suppose this doesn’t entirely ring true though as managed colour up with stems using ADA Amazonia type 1 two months in with their extremely lean fertilising regime.

Tropica soil is very usable for these sort of scenarios though as it’s nowhere near as rich as Amazonia nor has the same CEC.

Decreasing micros to the bare minimum before hitting trouble also seems to be a significant component. Relies on you keeping a very watchful eye on your setup when using higher levels of lighting and no plant cover (floaters). As @Jayefc1 pointed out it’s stupid to run two ONF’s on this setup, things can go seriously tits up in 24 hours. But, it’s nice being kept on the edge of your seat. Keeps you mindful of what you’re doing and results either way are fast, giving you quick feedback.

Your recent setup @LondonDragon should be pretty well suited to colouring up Rotala’s but softer water has made it a breeze from experience. Darrel / @dw1305 gave a really useful explanation about how Rotala’s restrict nutrient uptake (I believe it was restricting high iron levels in soil) on another thread, possibly one of @JoshP12 threads.
 

Nick72

Member
Joined
21 Apr 2020
Messages
283
Location
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
I suppose the other workaround @Jayefc1 is to extend out water changes to 10-12 days to steadily diminish the nitrate in the water column. It would be a cycle between every water change though and not consistent - NO3 trending downwards.

That would be a risk to try and also presumes the water report is accurate... the average is worked out from 53 samples with the range of NO3 standing at 11.5ppm lowest to 35.8ppm highest, setting an mean average of 23.7ppm. It’s also from last year which is why I hate this, “I know what’s going on” mentality... do you heck and I’m certainly not exempt.

Dosing no NO3 over 10-12 days should at least ensure whatever is going on in the tank, the nitrate is steadily trending towards decreasing between water changes. It just seems like a lot of instability/uncertainty for the temptation of coloured up and compact growth.

You’re right though, RO ruined all the love before.

It would be far more simple to apply EI, accept different colouration, faster growth and more trimming.

That would be my worry, how far off the average value would any single water change be. The fluctuations in NO3 not only from peak at water change leaning off over the 12 days, but also from variability in the peak via the tap water. Is this not likely to induce further algae growth?
 

Jayefc1

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2017
Messages
2,181
Location
Swadlincote
It would be far more simple to apply EI, accept different colouration, faster growth and more trimming
Didnt set this little beast up for a simple life though did you could you not slowly start to stretch the water changes out say 9 days or still do the weekly water change but adding no no3 apart from what's in the tap and see what happens over the next month wouldnt that still be limiting maybe not as much as you want but would be a good starting point
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
This is about as good as it got with the tap water here on this tank previously:

1594630073022.jpeg


1594630109811.jpeg


The major difference is the health of the lower portions of the stems and colouration.

With 120 TDS controlled water (80-90% RO / 20%-10% tap) the health of everything from root to tip was much more impressive due to improved nutrient uptake. On tap with fast growing stems like in the pictures above, the lower portions are always struggling with all other things being kept equal (photoperiod/intensity/Co2/turnover/in-tank flow).

If stretching out water changes, specifically on the tap water here (wouldn’t advise generalising) to lean out nitrate I would suspect growth would be variable, overall cleanliness would be more of an issue and a larger, more diverse clean up crew would be needed.... Or... Heigh-Ho, Heigh-Ho, it’s back to RO we go...
 
Last edited:

Nick72

Member
Joined
21 Apr 2020
Messages
283
Location
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Your such a perfectionist it makes me chuckle most people would be feeling a sence of achievement from the above pics lol and would actually give almost anything to have that look in there tanks lol

I second that. The tank in the above pictures is fantastic.
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
It depends what you’re trying to achieve I guess. Chasing new learnings rather than perfection. Don’t mind totalling a tank if it leads to some new understanding. This most recent tank is not very smart given the plant species selection for the tap water here, but given lockdown it’s made up of what was to hand.

That was the thing with the New Year, New Scape... setup. Already knew upfront it would be very successful with the species selection and the timing they were introduced. It looked so sparsely planted at startup. However, all the species in there thrive just using tap parameters and EI dosing here so the hardscape was relatively unimportant. Pretty safe bet. It’s the exception to the rule that you have to start with high plant mass. Just choose your plants better. It was only ever going to be a jungle and swamp the hardscape. But learned practically nothing from running that setup.

The opposite of the above is this tank currently - attempting to grow less than optimal species in uncontrolled tap water, staring at Mulder’s Chart of nutrient interaction and quickly remembering it’s all futile because a) no faith in hobby grade test kits and b) the variability of tap parameters. The TDS readings alone have ranged from 380ppm to 510ppm over the last four weeks. Who knows what’s causing that large a fluctuation of conductivity? How can you establish any relationships with all that variability without adapting and planting with very tolerant species? Rhetorical question... the only dependable option is RO dosed to spec if accuracy is what floats your boat, then you can reasonably estimate what’s working for each plant species to understand them a little better.

Long rant but in sum I find it futile trying to learn anything from this tank using tap water... That’s why:

most people would be feeling a sence of achievement

and I don’t. That and I’m a miserable git 😂
 

dw1305

Expert
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
10,971
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
The TDS readings alone have ranged from 380ppm to 510ppm over the last four weeks. Who knows what’s causing that large a fluctuation of conductivity?
It will be the relative mix of ground and surface water, and because of the time of year there may also be some input from water that has been nitrate stripped as well.

Our tap water is always pretty similar in values because it comes from a deep limestone aquifer and isn't much influenced by rainfall etc.

cheers Darrel
 

Geoffrey Rea

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
988
Location
Cambridgeshire
Dont do it remember how it was draining the fun from the tank

Bad news @Jayefc1 gone back to RO 😂

Gets worse... Even switched the 1200 over as well. Both these puppies on RO now:



Glutton for punishment mate. But on the flip side, excited to have greater certainty about input into the tanks and their parameters. Makes it easier to figure out what’s working out across time.
 
Last edited:

Deano3

Member
Joined
8 Feb 2012
Messages
2,123
Bad news @Jayefc1 gone back to RO

Gets worse... Even switched the 1200 over as well. Both these puppies on RO now:

View attachment 152370

Glutton for punishment mate. But on the flip side, excited to have greater certainty about input into the tanks and their parameters. Makes it easier to figure out what’s working out across time.
That looks so good very relaxing, why yoi changed to ro mate ?

Dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
 

Jayefc1

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2017
Messages
2,181
Location
Swadlincote
Oh mate I knew you would as soon as you had it in your head but the 1200 too that is going to be intresting you on 1 WC per week now then can you stretch that with the RO
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
DeepMetropolis To sump or n̶o̶t̶ to sump? (journal) Journals 114

Similar threads

Top