The answer to redder plants?

[Team Steve]

Was reading George Farmers iwagumi journal, located here: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - The End | Page 6 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

The problem he had is that his Ludwigia arcuata wouldn't go red... so it got me thinking.

I searched other forums and most people say correct ferts, high lights will make them go red but this isn't the case for every one so there must be some other contributing factor.

Within plants, Chloroplasts which are used in photosynthesis contain the green pigment chlorophyll which reflects the green wavelength (520–570 nm). There also exists other pigments which are carotenoids (yellow orange) and anthocyanins (mostly red) and are separate from chlorophyll.

Red leafs have a lower rate of photosynthesis compared to green leafs, the rate of photosynthesis being affected by intensity, wavelength, CO2 and pH, Temperature.

My idea is that people growing red plants will most likely have optimum lights and CO2 (inc ferts), but they don't quote their tanks pH or temperature. So are these factors why some people can't get their plants to look red?

I personally think pH plays the bigger role than temperature but who knows.

If I had a spare tank I would test it, but if any one feels like putting this theory to the test then do post pictures!

Sources:

Biology, Answering the Big Questions of Life/Photosynthesis - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

Anthocyanin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chemistry of Autumn Leaf Color - Fall Leaves

Leaf Color and Photosynthetic Rates

Hope it makes sense...

Steve

 

[George Farmer]

Interesting - thanks for posting. I think different species react very differently too. So I doubt they'll be a one-stop solution for all red plants.

 

[DrRob]

Not an aquatic study, but something I came across recently when reading around the subject of light frequencies after reading a tread on here. Does support your initial theory on pH to a degree.

BMC Plant Biology | Full text | Light-induced morphological alteration in anthocyanin-accumulating vacuoles of maize cells

 

[Brian Murphy]

I read somewhere that adding broken clay pots with the red pigment in them mixed with the substrate can help?

 

[DrRob]

That's most likely related to iron dosing as the pigment is likely to be an iron oxide from firing the clay.

 

[G H Nelson]

Was reading George Farmers iwagumi journal, located here: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - The End | Page 6 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

The problem he had is that his Ludwigia arcuata wouldn't go red... so it got me thinking.

I searched other forums and most people say correct ferts, high lights will make them go red but this isn't the case for every one so there must be some other contributing factor.

Within plants, Chloroplasts which are used in photosynthesis contain the green pigment chlorophyll which reflects the green wavelength (520–570 nm). There also exists other pigments which are carotenoids (yellow orange) and anthocyanins (mostly red) and are separate from chlorophyll.

Red leafs have a lower rate of photosynthesis compared to green leafs, the rate of photosynthesis being affected by intensity, wavelength, CO2 and pH, Temperature.

My idea is that people growing red plants will most likely have optimum lights and CO2 (inc ferts), but they don't quote their tanks pH or temperature. So are these factors why some people can't get their plants to look red?

I personally think pH plays the bigger role than temperature but who knows.

If I had a spare tank I would test it, but if any one feels like putting this theory to the test then do post pictures!

Sources: (can't post them yet)

Hope it makes sense...

Steve

Hi Steve
Welcome to the forum....good first post.
My theory is light ph gh kh are all contributory factors on getting plants to turn red.
As George mentioned some plants are easier than others to attain the red colouration....which i can achieve with some and not with others.
I received the plant Rotala enie in tip top condition from "Alan the rare plant man", who was well known on this forum.
After a few weeks Enie will start losing its nice deep red stem colour....although healthy.
We have similar tap water...but here is the clue Alan cuts his water with RO ratio 2 to 1 with tap.
Alans parameters... are 6kh 6gh Po4.... 0.1 No3....8 up to 15ppm/ lt.
I feel a little experiment coming on...if i get the time.
Cheers
hoggie

 

[Ian Holdich]

I've never had any luck with red plants...the ones that are meant to be red always do fine, it's the ones what turn red I have the problem with. At present I have quite a lot of light over my R, Mac, and it's a nice orange!
Dropping the N03 is supposed to bring the red out, but I just daren't do that! Lol

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi Ian
Alan lived in London...and i live in Hemel Hempstead...so both waters are like concrete.
Alans No3 is between 8/15ppm..but i dont know how he came to that conclusion..because we keep banging on about hobby test kits being rubbish.
Seemed to work for him though...cutting the water with RO.
hoggie

 

[Ian Holdich]

I'm in Lincoln and our water is the same, it runs off limestone. It's nails...I have use tap water, ro cut and pure Ro, with the same results.
My local p@h put Rotala in there fish holding tanks and it turns a lovely pink colour. This is with minimal light, no c02, no ferts.
When I was over at tropica they were doing the same in their plant testing tanks. There was some real colour and nothing dosed! No high light either. This must be a stress response from the plant?

 

[foxfish]

From my experience with emersed growing, red plants stay red... so perhaps it is just about light & C02 ... that fine balance that is so difficult to maintain underwater?

 

[G H Nelson]

I'm in Lincoln and our water is the same, it runs off limestone. It's nails...I have use tap water, ro cut and pure Ro, with the same results.
My local p@h put Rotala in there fish holding tanks and it turns a lovely pink colour. This is with minimal light, no c02, no ferts.
When I was over at tropica they were doing the same in their plant testing tanks. There was some real colour and nothing dosed! No high light either. This must be a stress response from the plant?

That's interesting...although i find Rotala rotundifolia one of the easier plants too colour up.
hoggie

 

[G H Nelson]

From my experience with emersed growing, red plants stay red... so perhaps it is just about light & C02 ... that fine balance that is so difficult to maintain underwater?

Hi Foxfish
Have you attempted to submerged? do they stay red after being submerged?
hoggie

 

[Yo-han]

IMO it's about the amount of light vs the growrate. When a plants grows slow and receives lots of light it makes more red pigment to protect itself from the amount of light. Reducing N, reduces the grow rate, when keeping the amount of light the same, plants go more red. With lots of CO2 (assuming all other needs are filled) and little light, plants grow fast so not that much red. Same grow rate but more light, more red, etc...

 

[foxfish]

Hi Foxfish
Have you attempted to submerged? do they stay red after being submerged?
hoggie

Yes I use my emersed plants in my tank all the time but they only stay 'really red, bushy and lush' for a week or so!

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi
Still think its water parameter related....if i remember correctly Clive couldn't get some plants to go red....although super healthy.
hoggie

 

[Michael W]

IMO it's about the amount of light vs the growrate. When a plants grows slow and receives lots of light it makes more red pigment to protect itself from the amount of light. Reducing N, reduces the grow rate, when keeping the amount of light the same, plants go more red. With lots of CO2 (assuming all other needs are filled) and little light, plants grow fast so not that much red. Same grow rate but more light, more red, etc...

I like this theory but I also have one that some what appears to be the same but I don't know if I can get my point across due to my poor scientific knowledge I don't know if it actually is.

I think plants receive their red colouration due to higher light. Now my scientific knowledge to do with plants is pretty poor so I may be wrong. The reason why I think this is because the Chloroplast and Chlorophyll will make up the green pigment and they're used for photosynthesis. So in theory a large amount of these appear on the plant in order to capture light to photosynthesize. But when they receive enough light there is no need for the plant to invest more of these cells to capture light but instead divert their energy into growing hence the lack of the green pigment. This is just my opinion so please correct me if I'm wrong which I'm sure someone will.

Michael.

 

[Yo-han]

Still think its water parameter related....if i remember correctly Clive couldn't get some plants to go red....although super healthy.

But he has fast growth. With fast growth it is harder to get plants red unless you really nuke them with light till a point where they can't grow any faster and turn red to protect themselves.

I like this theory but I also have one that some what appears to be the same but I don't know if I can get my point across due to my poor scientific knowledge I don't know if it actually is. I think plants receive their red colouration due to higher light. Now my scientific knowledge to do with plants is pretty poor so I may be wrong. The reason why I think this is because the Chloroplast and Chlorophyll will make up the green pigment and they're used for photosynthesis. So in theory a large amount of these appear on the plant in order to capture light to photosynthesize. But when they receive enough light there is no need for the plant to invest more of these cells to capture light but instead divert their energy into growing hence the lack of the green pigment. This is just my opinion so please correct me if I'm wrong which I'm sure someone will.

It is about the same but in your theory plants can never turn red in low light, but they do! So that is why I introduced growth speed into the equation

But I heard Tom is working on some plant fertilizer which is supposed to turn plants more red, so perhaps it is possible with certain enzymes or such.

 

[Team Steve]

From my experience with emersed growing, red plants stay red... so perhaps it is just about light & C02 ... that fine balance that is so difficult to maintain underwater?

but then why do they turn green when in a high concentrated CO2 water and high light environment? possibly to do with either what your growing them in or due to the diffraction of wave lengths?

IMO it's about the amount of light vs the growrate. When a plants grows slow and receives lots of light it makes more red pigment to protect itself from the amount of light. Reducing N, reduces the grow rate, when keeping the amount of light the same, plants go more red. With lots of CO2 (assuming all other needs are filled) and little light, plants grow fast so not that much red. Same grow rate but more light, more red, etc...

I would agree with the plant possibility protecting it self, this is like trees do in the autumn where the tree draws in nutrients and turns leafs red to protect the tree. so maybe a lower temperature would trick the plant into protecting it self? Personally don't think this is likely but temperature could play a big role.

Plants have genetic guide lines to follow (that can mutate) which would ensure a specific number of pigments being produced (depending on species) when a plant is growing, this leads me to think slow growing or fast growing shouldn't make a difference.

I would still look at something stopping certain pigments from activating.

 

[Yo-han]

this is like trees do in the autumn where the tree draws in nutrients and turns leafs red to protect the tree

No botanic expert but I was ones told the turning red in autumn has more to do with decreasing temperatures and the tree having a hard time pumping nitrogen towards the leaves.

 

[Team Steve]

No botanic expert but I was ones told the turning red in autumn has more to do with decreasing temperatures and the tree having a hard time pumping nitrogen towards the leaves.

me neither, just have an interest in it. It was probably one of those things I got told and believed lol, but from my reading the cooler weather, bright sunshine and more acidic pH does decrease the chlorophyll (green pigment) production and enhances anthocyanin production (red pigment)

Chemical of the Week -- The Chemistry of Autumn Colors