• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Too Much Light.... REALLY!?

Aeropars

Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
818
Location
Leicester
Hi All,

Since setting up my tank months ago with 4 x TMC Grobeam 600's over a Juwel 180L I've been battling hard to get the Lighting vs CO2 balance right along with my EI dosing.

Initially I started off with all 4 lights set to 30% brightness for 5 hours a day but it melted a lot of my plants eventually even though I have good flow and good CO2 (Green drop checker and a full 1 point drop in PH).

So I gradually dropped the lighting levels and I'm currently running all lights at 8% brightness and this is now at the point where plants have stopped melting rapidly and I "think" the plants I have left are stable. the problem is that I'm not seeing any real growth and the stem plants are not putting out any roots at the base.

The lights are mounted only a few CM above the water which is why I have 4 of the Growbeams as that amount is needed to cover the substrate. I understand that this is massive overkill and they will never get put on 100% brightness however I didn't expect them to only get up to 8% brightness. This is my first foray into LED and I never had such problems using the old 4 x T8 tubes of old.

Can anyone give me some advice as to how I can get better growth without melting the plants like I did before? I'm reluctant to invest in more plants until I can get the growth nailed on. I would assume increasing the lighting might be the answer?

I should add that I I'm filtering with an Eheim Pro 3 which has over 10x tank turnover per hour and also supplemented by a mid sized Koralia.
 
Last edited:
Evening,

My modest opinion:

Who told you or where you find that light is the cause itself for the Melt?

From what i´ve read you turn from T8 to led technology. So it was quite a change to plants.

But my friend the main issue is named Lumens.
How many? And how close to the bottom?

Probably you need to elevate the Grobeam for not being so close taking consideration the Lumens capacity.

CO2 and Ei is no issue. As long you have your drop with a certified 4dkh solution and kept it green or almost yellow you´ll be on target.

And other thing.. you don´t need a one unit drop in your PH. I know it´s something very propagated here in this forum. You drop one unit but you don´t mention your KH. Take that under consideration cause regarding your KH you´ll probably are putting to mcuh CO2 or in the worst case not enough.
So in my opinion forget that and regard only your drop cheker. I can point you my way.
I have a 1 BPS in my CO2 injection and it turns on 4 hours before lights. Buy the time the lights went on my drop cheker is allready almost yellow. And after my Co2 turns off one hour before lights went off too.
By this method i inject CO2 in a calm way, didn´t stress the fish and my PH is more atable also. Is more reliable than pushing hard to have a one unit drop.

"Eí" is no secret also. A simple test for Kno3 and Po4 at the end of the week and you´ll know if you´re on it.
Yes i know many people says is nonsense to test Ei but i do it only to have a reference.
One thing is for shure.. if you´re not dosing enough the test will point it. At list the lack or the excess of it te test will tell you.

Lights on by 7 hours. Regard that photoperiod doesn´t start imediately as lights turn on but probably a hour before. So with 7 hour lighting you´ll have a 6 hour photoperiod.

If making this and filter cleaning routine you have waht is needed. At list the principals.

If still melt or non growing continues than is something else to take care.

Big Hug
 
Hi all,
I'd up the light intensity.

I follow a different approach (and I'm strictly low tech.), but I let the amount of light (PAR) control the amount of growth. I don't really care what light I use, or how much PAR it produces.

Both my 2' tanks have a lot of low tech. plants, 2 x 24W T5 lights on a 12 hour day, without added CO2 and with very low nutrients. This tank is in a N. facing window. This photo was in 2012, all that has changed since is the Anubias now fills up 3/4 of the tank, and unfortunately I no longer have the <"Dicrossus maculatus">.

dicrossus_clup1_resize-1.jpg


If you have a floating plant it takes CO2 out of the equation, and you can use it to "dim" the light intensity for you. I use Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) as my duckweed of choice, but Salvinia or Pistia will do equally well.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi Darrel. Thats interesting as I have only today been reading about your duckweed test. I assume they feed only from the water column then?

I'm sure i could squeeze in a bit more CO2 but I'm not exactly what I'd call high tech. When you say you let the PAR dictate the growth rate, how are you able to do that? When I first started the tank, I was heavy on the CO2 and double dosed IE so theoretically, the plants had everything they needed to thrive. I assume the light was too intense for the level of CO2 which caused the melt. I assume that you are talking low levels of light when you let the light dictate the growth rate?

@ Paulo - I'm doing everything you've said and certainly acknowledge the principles. I once had a thriving tank under T8's but this LED lark seems to be much more powerful without actually making the tank look brighter. :)
 
Seeing that you've had some experience (from the t8 set), I'm not sure if I need to ask this.
Is the tank newly setup, not just an old tank getting new lighting?
If so, could it be that your LED light was already good but the new plants just needed to adjust to the new environment,
and by the time you lowered your light intensity, they already had finished the process?

This is not limited to plants that are grown emersed (above water) and have to adjust to aquatic
environment but also true aquatic plants that can't grow on land such as Blyxa. They could melt
when introduced in a new environment.
 
I use Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) as my duckweed of choice, but Salvinia or Pistia will do equally well.
I used to use frogbit for this, but it keeps getting holes in it. I think it's from condensation dripping from the lid. Do you happen to know if either salvinia or pistia would be more resistant to the burn?
Thanks.
 
Seeing that you've had some experience (from the t8 set), I'm not sure if I need to ask this.
Is the tank newly setup, not just an old tank getting new lighting?
If so, could it be that your LED light was already good but the new plants just needed to adjust to the new environment,
and by the time you lowered your light intensity, they already had finished the process?

This is not limited to plants that are grown emersed (above water) and have to adjust to aquatic
environment but also true aquatic plants that can't grow on land such as Blyxa. They could melt
when introduced in a new environment.
I should have said really. Its an old tank, newly set up after a house move where the lighting ballast got broke in the process. All new plants however the tank was running, un-planted, for 6 months housing fish only.
 
Are these growbeam tiles or aqua bars? either way 4 running at 30% sounds about right and if your still getting melt then more co2 and/or flow is where you should be looking if your dosing EI properly
They are the bars. I've upped it to 15% and I'll see how I go. I'm going to get some test plants at the weekend and see how they go as an indicator.
 

If so, could it be that your LED light was already good but the new plants just needed to adjust to the new environment,
and by the time you lowered your light intensity, they already had finished the process?

I typed it wrong. The "if so" actually meant "if it's newly setup".

They are the bars. I've upped it to 15% and I'll see how I go. I'm going to get some test plants at the weekend and see how they go as an indicator.

So yes, I think upping it is a good idea.
 
Hi all,
I assume they feed only from the water column then?
Yes they do, but it wasn't that which initially drew my interest, it was purely access to aerial CO2 (~400ppm). I actually started off with Lemna minor as a floater and Cyperus alternatifolius as an emergent (which would have advantages in terms of increasing REDOX values within the substrate), but I soon realised that most people didn't have open-topped tanks, and were ill-disposed towards Duckweed. I also found that Lemna doesn't enjoy soft, nutrient poor water and goes yellow which defeats the object of using its colour as an indicator of nutrient status.
I used to use frogbit for this, but it keeps getting holes in it. I think it's from condensation dripping from the lid. Do you happen to know if either salvinia or pistia would be more resistant to the burn?
I've done better with Limnobium than Pistia, but Salvinia is pretty bullet-proof. I've got plenty spare of all three of them. If the young leaves are yellow and then develop brown dots? that sounds like it may be iron deficiency rather than drip, which is possible even with EI if you have hard water and EDTA as your iron source.

cheers Darrel
 
I've done better with Limnobium than Pistia, but Salvinia is pretty bullet-proof. I've got plenty spare of all three of them. If the young leaves are yellow and then develop brown dots? that sounds like it may be iron deficiency rather than drip, which is possible even with EI if you have hard water and EDTA as your iron source.

cheers Darrel

I have seen this mentioned a few times what is the best iron source for hard water then? I am in Cambridge and we get pretty much liquid rock and doing EI with chelated traces so should I be overdosing micros?
 
Hi all,
I have seen this mentioned a few times what is the best iron source for hard water then? I am in Cambridge and we get pretty much liquid rock and doing EI with chelated traces so should I be overdosing micros?
FeDTPA is a better iron source for very hard water.
graph.jpg


Somewhere like Cambridge will have its water coming from a chalk aquifer, and chalk is 100% CaCO3, so it won't supply any magnesium (Mg). In hard water a lot of insoluble compounds (Iron hydroxides, calcium phosphate) will form, and these make nutrients like Fe+++ & PO4--- unavailable.

I wouldn't up the input of the other micro elements, but it might be worth looking at your magnesium (Mg) input. <"A high Ca++:Mg++ ratio"> can interfere with the uptake of magnesium and iron, and possibly potassium (K+) as well.

cheers Darrel
 
Thank you Darrel very informative post as usual. Is there any good way of accessing the levels of Mg2+? I measured KH/GH at the start of the tank and got something like kH12/gH18 the problem is those values are way outside the printed calibration curve of the API test kit so no idea if the linearity still holds outside the printed range. For that reason I am not dosing Mg2+ with my EI but from your post it seems I should probably start? Either that or reduce hardness with RO I assume.

I feel I am derailing the thread a bit sorry for that @Aeropars.
 
Hi all,
Is there any good way of accessing the levels of Mg2+? I measured KH/GH at the start of the tank and got something like kH12/gH18 the problem is those values are way outside the printed calibration curve of the API test kit so no idea if the linearity still holds outside the printed range
No the dGH/dKH are expressed as CaCO3, so you don't know whether they are calcium or magnesium ions. In this case, because of the geology you can be pretty certain that they are all Ca++.
For that reason I am not dosing Mg2+ with my EI but from your post it seems I should probably start?
Bingo, that is very likely your issue.

Because magnesium is mobile within the plant you should get a quick response with greening of the new leaves within a couple of days of starting adding it.

cheers Darrel
 
For that reason I am not dosing Mg2+ with my EI
Why oh why oh why do people insist in rolling their own version of EI then wonder why they are having issues ??? :(

The normal reason is "my test kit says my water is high nitrates, so I am not dosing KNO3 and just can't understand why my plants are wasting away...." :confused:

MgSO4 is the cheapest EI ingredient, you can get 25Kg for £20 delivered on Ebay, so no reason to not dose.:greedy:
 
Why oh why oh why do people insist in rolling their own version of EI then wonder why they are having issues ??? :(

The normal reason is "my test kit says my water is high nitrates, so I am not dosing KNO3 and just can't understand why my plants are wasting away...." :confused:

MgSO4 is the cheapest EI ingredient, you can get 25Kg for £20 delivered on Ebay, so no reason to not dose.:greedy:
Well I was just following the instructions on the pack saying I might not need it in very hard water regions. Plus the idea of adding even more Mg contributing to an increase in hard water was something that didn't appeal to me. Will now add it and see how the plants react.

I am also having problems with surface foam any idea what causes it? Seems worst with surface agitation


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Cheers Darrel you may have just saved my tank. Will start dosing it and see the response I am also getting pin holes on some anubias which as far as I understand could be related to K+ deficiency and pale new leaves on them as well which I assume were normal but from your posts they probably are Mg2+ deficiency. Brilliant will have to read the dGH/dKH as I obviously got it completely wrong
 
Back
Top