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Trace Elements/CSM + B, UK or Import - What do you use.

K

KirstyF

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2021
Messages
663
Location
Kidderminster
Hi All

Just looking to get prepped up in advance of new tank arriving and have a query re Micro's.

I've found Macro dry salts that I can mix at home (NPK - KN03, KH2P04, K2S04) and the prices are not so bad but creating a DIY Micro mix is a bit more complex. I've therefore been looking at CSM+B and can add Magnesium if needed. (My water is hard at around 14.5GH, so I'm assuming that Calcium is unlikely to be an issue but unfortunately my on-line water report does not specify Mg or Ca levels so no way of knowing what that GH is made up of) I'll have to monitor and see how that goes.
This will be my first tank since moving to this area so no prior experience of the water and no testing completed as yet.

I've found one place in the UK that sells CSM+B in 10g bags which yield 0.015PPM Fe when diluted into a 500ml solution and dosed at 1ml per 100L. (£4 per bag)

Ingredient info below:

Fe – 7,80%, Mn- 2,00%, B – 1,40%,

Zn- 0,40%, Cu – 0,10%, Mo – 0,06%

E 202 & E 300

EDTA Chelated

My new tank will be 727L (when empty)
or 192 US gallons
or 160 imperial gallons

By my calculations, to hit 0.5ppm of Fe pw (EI recommended) I would need to use 33.33ml per 100L, which is 242.3ml/3 doses per wk = 80.77ml per dose. (or 80ml for ease)

Therefore 10g of CSM+B will give me approx 6 doses at a cost of 67p per dose.

Alternatively I can pay shocking import charges and wait a month and get Plantex CSM+B from NilocG in North America which is sold in 1lb bags (only £13:00/$18:00 for the product but £35/$47 for shipping)

Ingredient Info below:
Total magnesium(water soluble chelated mg) 1.5%
Copper(chelated) 0.1%
Iron (chelated) 7.0%
Manganese(chelated) 2.0%
Molybdenum. 0.06%
Zinc(chelated) 0.40%
Boron 0.8%
EDTA – minimum content 65.4%

Dosing states that 1/8th tsp into 10 gallons will add 0.5ppm fe

I would need 19 x 1/8th tsp/3 doses pw = 6.33 x 1/8th tsp (lets say 6 for ease) per dose

There are 768 x 1/8th tsp in 1lb/6 = 128 doses

Cost per 1lb with shipping = £48.00

Cost per dose = 37.5p

My short questions, after these long explanations are:

Can I add up?
which (in your opinion) would be the best Micro option of the two above (or they close enough that it doesn't really matter)?
Anyone know of any other good options for dry trace, inside/outside the UK?
Does anyone know any UK suppliers of CSM+B that sell in larger (better value) quantities so that I don't have to ship in from North America?
What's everybody else in the UK using for large tanks?

Many thanks for your replies
 
APFUK trace is pretty good value here in the UK and many use it on the forum, unless you wish to buy 1KG of Solufeed Sodium Free TEC-ST.
Many of the CSM+B are well overpriced IMO
1629739510996.png

If your going down the DIY route may be worth a try of the IFC calculator which once you get use to it has many of the trace ferts with there analysis data also to handy to compare.
Calculator also has a DIY trace section so you can make your own trace with all the serial dilutions to boot.
 
Hey Zeus
Thanks for your reply. The one I found was Aqua Plant Care and ur right, as per your list, it is a 21g packet not 10g (so there goes my calcs, lol) although it has now gone up to £3.99!
I’ll take a look at APFUK but their website has been down for 2 days now. Hoping it really is maintenance and not a permanent issue. So many businesses are struggling to survive Brexit and the pandemic combined.

Thanks for the IFC link. Will definitely take a look at that. Can’t open on my phone but will take a peak on my laptop later.

Appreciate the pointers. 😊
 
Zeus. said:
If your going down the DIY route may be worth a try of the IFC calculator which once you get use to it has many of the trace ferts with there analysis data also to handy to compare.
Calculator also has a DIY trace section so you can make your own trace with all the serial dilutions to boot.
Click to expand...
Just been playing with the IFC calculator and had to come back on and say fab job guys. The idea of DIY trace seemed a bit much but this calculator makes it all so do-able. Including the stock solutions....stroke of genius. 👍
 
KirstyF said:
Just been playing with the IFC calculator and had to come back on and say fab job guys. The idea of DIY trace seemed a bit much but this calculator makes it all so do-able. Including the stock solutions....stroke of genius. 👍
Click to expand...
Thank you for you kind words, it goes a long way. We did the calculator to make it easier for ourselves and sharing it seemed the logical thing to do as others may find it helpful.
 
Zeus. said:
Thank you for you kind words, it goes a long way. We did the calculator to make it easier for ourselves and sharing it seemed the logical thing to do as others may find it helpful.
Click to expand...
No problem, the efforts you guys have made I’m sure are, and will continue to be, much appreciated by many.

I for one will now be ordering a bunch of dry salts and going DIY across the board and I don’t think I’d have made that choice without this calc. 😊

I do have a couple of quick questions though before I order.

1 - On the compare section for cloning established mixes, I notice that few have Ni and/or Co and those that do are very low level. Q- Are these 2 elements of any great value or ok to skip
2 - Am I correct in assuming that the as I would already be getting some K from potassium nitrate (KN03) and monopotassium sulphate (KH2P04) I only need to top up the difference with Potassium sulphate (K2S04) to reach my desired total dose for K. (Just checking)
3 - As I mentioned, my local water report is sadly lacking so it’s not clear how much Magnesium and how much Calcium are making up my 14.5 dGH. Can anyone recommend a reliable test kit that I can use to verify the Mg/Ca level. (I’m assuming I only need one to extrapolate the other)

Thanks for all replies.
 
KirstyF said:
1 - On the compare section for cloning established mixes, I notice that few have Ni and/or Co and those that do are very low level. Q- Are these 2 elements of any great value or ok to skip
Click to expand...
I did the maths on my water report and the Ni levels was acceptable so no Ni needed, I would assume the same for Co. They are more there for folk using 100% RO water
KirstyF said:
Am I correct in assuming that the as I would already be getting some K from potassium nitrate (KN03) and monopotassium sulphate (KH2P04) I only need to top up the difference with Potassium sulphate (K2S04) to reach my desired total dose for K. (Just checking)
Click to expand...

yes its the total amount and the calculator accounts for this and has a picking order, which I referred to as the 'headshot order' in the early releases
1629929841237.png

So it does NO3 first any K is accounted for and the same for PO4 so when you pick say K2SO4 to make up any shortfall in K it will only give the mass thats needed to hit your target, if later you add some say KHCO3 it accounts for that K as well and adjusts the K2SO4 needed again. There are limits and you you add enough KNO3, KH2PO4 and KHCO3 you will go above your K target but it will not add any K2SO4
KirstyF said:
3 - As I mentioned, my local water report is sadly lacking so it’s not clear how much Magnesium and how much Calcium are making up my 14.5 dGH. Can anyone recommend a reliable test kit that I can use to verify the Mg/Ca level. (I’m assuming I only need one to extrapolate the other)
Click to expand...
I dont test, its a waste of money and effort IMO, many UK water supplies have plenty of Ca and little Mg so just toss a teaspoon of epsom salts at water change per 100 litres will increase the [Mg] 5ppm. My tap water had 140ppm Ca and 5ppm Mg so I just ignored the ratios and add a few teaspoons of Epsom salts. The ratios are fine for reminerlising RO water otherwise just ignore them and watch your plants, they well tell you if they are not happy
 
Zeus. said:
APFUK trace is pretty good value here in the UK and many use it on the forum, unless you wish to buy 1KG of Solufeed Sodium Free TEC-ST.
Many of the CSM+B are well overpriced IMO
View attachment 173430
If your going down the DIY route may be worth a try of the IFC calculator which once you get use to it has many of the trace ferts with there analysis data also to handy to compare.
Calculator also has a DIY trace section so you can make your own trace with all the serial dilutions to boot.
Click to expand...

Hi Zeus,

Recently, APF have been out of stock on chelated trace elements, and I can’t seem to find anything similar anywhere, I refuse to pay £3.99 from a guy on eBay, selling 10g in a small drug bag when I have a 1500L tank. EI dosing is supposed to be a cheaper alternative, especially for large aquariums… do you or anyone following this discussion, know any sources at all for micronutrients, preferably ready mixed, but open to any suggestions considering it’s impossible to get chelated trace elements from aquariumplantfood.co.uk :(

Cheers in advance.

Nathan in Manchester


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
When we compare APFUK with Solufeed Sodium Free TEC it is hard to spot the differance
1631743162958.png
1631743226679.png

It is no surprise that APFUK get their trace salts from Solufeed

Solufeed Sodium Free TEC £13.80 for 1.0Kg should last a few years ;)
 
I used the IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator and went to the DIY trace section and just selected the trace salts and compared them. However I was already aware of it being a suitable substitute after many an hour I spent with @Hanuman putting the calculator together

You can even select the salt in the TargetCalulator and target a specific Fe ppm
1631745573357.png


or in the DIYCalculator it gives the yeilds for a specific mass of the dose based on your tank size and dosing regime.

If you find anything missing on the calculator give us the heads up and we will see if we can get it on next release ;)
 
Zeus. said:
When we compare APFUK with Solufeed Sodium Free TEC it is hard to spot the differance
View attachment 174365View attachment 174366
It is no surprise that APFUK get their trace salts from Solufeed

Solufeed Sodium Free TEC £13.80 for 1.0Kg should last a few years ;)
Click to expand...

Hi @Zeus. this trace blend looks great... I tried to order online, but they don't ship to the US... Wish I could find a similar product - but takes a lot of research to go through the ingredient lists etc. - perhaps Solufeed is sold under a different name here.

Cheers,
Michael
 
MichaelJ said:
Hi @Zeus. this trace blend looks great... I tried to order online, but they don't ship to the US... Wish I could find a similar product - but takes a lot of research to go through the ingredient lists etc. - perhaps Solufeed is sold under a different name here.

Cheers,
Michael
Click to expand...
Have a google and see what you can get locally
the List of commercial trace ferts we though was suitable is but we didnt look hard
1631819189607.png

but we only added what folk asked about and then we ran though the elements and compared them then added them to the calculator. If you see what you can get I will run the numbers and add it to the calculator no problem M8. Its very easy for us to add more commercial trace salts, It will help others also ;)
 
Zeus. said:
Have a google and see what you can get locally
the List of commercial trace ferts we though was suitable is but we didnt look hard
View attachment 174378
but we only added what folk asked about and then we ran though the elements and compared them then added them to the calculator. If you see what you can get I will run the numbers and add it to the calculator no problem M8. Its very easy for us to add more commercial trace salts, It will help others also ;)
Click to expand...
Hi Zeus. Yes, I will look around and see what I can find and try.

Right now I am using this chelated liquid soluble trace element mix. I've been using it for two months now and haven't noticed any deficiencies or issues, plants are doing great, so I would give it my thumbs up actually.
I target 0.55ppm of Fe weekly (split over two weekly doses) and get enough Mn,Cu and Zn with that dose as well, but it's just a bit too lean I think on Mo and B...perhaps - I am probably just nitpicking :).

I dilute the trace in distilled water 1:7 in a 300 ml bottle and that will last about two months for both my 150L tanks.. the quart (946 ml) of the trace I bought @ 21.5 USD should then last for 26 x 300 ml bottles... or about 5 years!! making the bottle price around 82 cents :)

I guess, I could just add the Mo and B, that I think is missing, to the water mix.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Last edited:
Can you get NilocG Plantex CSM+B, when we did the IFC calculator I spent some time weighing up valve for money commercial ferts and NilocG range came out top, only problem with NilocG complete range is we cant get it in the UK which is the only reason I would recommend TNC complete which came second.

Not too bad $13 for 1lb

NilocG Plantex CSM+B is on the IFC as well so you can use it to get the Fe ppm your after
 
Zeus. said:
Can you get NilocG Plantex CSM+B, when we did the IFC calculator I spent some time weighing up valve for money commercial ferts and NilocG range came out top, only problem with NilocG complete range is we cant get it in the UK which is the only reason I would recommend TNC complete which came second.
Click to expand...
Hi @Zeus. Yup! I can totally get that here in the US - half a pound is $15.99 on Amazon ...
Zeus. said:
NilocG Plantex CSM+B is on the IFC as well so you can use it to get the Fe ppm your after
Click to expand...
Do you have a calculation that shows what you get of each element when targeting 0.5 ppm Fe ? (dumb question, I guess.. of course you do :) )

Looks like 1 gram would target 0.5 ppm of Fe for a 150L tank... so in my case with two 150L tanks the 1/2 lbs bag would last a bit over two years... not bad at all!

Cheers,
Michael
 
Last edited:
Zeus. said:
View attachment 174412
One gram a week for 150l tank would be correct and you get a little Mg as well
Click to expand...

Hi Zeus,

Based on that recommendation you sent me the other day for trace elements here >>> Solufeed Sodium Free TEC

How many teaspoons per week would I need to reach this optimum 0.5ppm iron for a 1500L tank?

Sorry I can’t use your excel on mobile :(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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