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Trace Elements/CSM + B, UK or Import - What do you use.

Hi Zeus,

Based on that recommendation you sent me the other day for trace elements here >>> Solufeed Sodium Free TEC

How many teaspoons per week would I need to reach this optimum 0.5ppm iron for a 1500L tank?

Sorry I can’t use your excel on mobile :(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No problem m8, happy to help :)

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So one teaspoon twice a week sounds good to me. I would weigh 10 teaspoons and just check the weight as level teaspoons may be plenty as in my experience trace elements tend to be fine powders ;)
(Ignore the 100ml dose as thats what it was set at for making a solution, 8.9grams of the trace salt dry dosed into tank yields the same)
 
Yup!

I use 0.25g of Ascorbic Acid per 500ml of RO/DI and the pH comes out at 3.2 before salts addition, plenty acid enough to keep the ferts viable.

:)
Awesome thanks!

EDIT: I think I should be ok with the 10 ml of white vinegar and a bit (0.25g) of Potassium sorbate. I will go through a bottle in about 2 months and then mix a new one.
 
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@X3NiTH / @Zeus. Just got the Plantex CMS+B and made my first 300 ml bottle today : 32g of the powder + 250 ml distilled water + 0.25g of Potassium sorbate ... I accidentally added 20 ml of white vinegar instead of 10 ml... not sure whether that's consequential or not. The bottle is supposed to last 10 weeks or so. It's a bit hard to dissolve - lots of residue at the bottom of the bottle - I guess I just have to shake it really well before dosing. After acquiring a bit more knowledge about how Fe "behaves", I think I am going to up my dosing frequency a bit and targeting around 1 ppm weekly of Fe instead of my current 0.55 ppm.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Just got the Plantex CMS+B and made my first 300 ml bottle today : 32g of the powder + 250 ml distilled water + 0.25g of Potassium sorbate ...
lots of residue at the bottom of the bottle

The solubility of traces mixes varies from product to product and can be hard to find, in the IFC calculator we based all the solubility of trace salts and trace salt mixes limits based on Fe 13.2 Fe EDTA which we had data on which happens to be 75grams per litre so you mix may be a little on limit.

So I would add another 250ml of RO water and all the salts should dissolve, add 0.25g of Potassium sorbate and just dose the amount your dosing and sorted.

I have added too much acidifiers in past by accident its so easy :rolleyes: I just accept it and move on - better too much than not enough and once it hits the tank it makes so little difference as it will be mega diluted by a few ml landing in many litres
 
The solubility of traces mixes varies from product to product and can be hard to find, in the IFC calculator we based all the solubility of trace salts and trace salt mixes limits based on Fe 13.2 Fe EDTA which we had data on which happens to be 75grams per litre so you mix may be a little on limit.

So I would add another 250ml of RO water and all the salts should dissolve, add 0.25g of Potassium sorbate and just dose the amount your dosing and sorted.
Thanks @Zeus. Yes, it did occur to me that my mixture might have been a bit over the limit in terms of solubility. I may split it up into two bottles as you suggest.

I have added too much acidifiers in past by accident its so easy :rolleyes: I just accept it and move on - better too much than not enough and once it hits the tank it makes so little difference as it will be mega diluted by a few ml landing in many litres
Good to know.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi @Zeus. Got some better and bigger dosing bottles (500 ml instead of 300 ml) that dispenses ~2.0 ml instead of ~0.6 ml per pump. I mixed a new bottle with the Plantex CMS+B. This time I mixed 12g with 500 ml distilled water (instead of 32g @ 300 ml). This mix dissolved like a charm - zero residue at the bottom! Also, I opted for 0.3 g of Ascorbic Acid (per @X3NiTH) + 0.3 g of Potassium sorbate. pH comes out around 4.55 - not sure my probe is any good at low pH... but pH should be low enough to keep it viable for about a month when I need a new bottle. As always, thanks for the help!

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Hi There
Just resurrecting this old thread to add another related query.

Just wanted to check if ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate is needed in micro stock solutions?

I understand that these act to preserve mixes and reduce ph and are advisable for dosing solutions (although I’m not totally clear on the science) but a 100ml stock solution (over a years worth) of Mn or Cu for example would use just 0.05g of potassium sorbate based on the same ratios, which means I’d probably need a stock solution to make my stock solutions 😂

I know I could dilute further but I’d like to keep the stock solutions in smaller bottles just for storage convenience really.
 
Some elements are more reactive at higher pH in forming precipitates so Acid is used to prevent this, if the salt in question is a chelated salt like EDTA then the pH has to be low enough to prevent the chelate from reacting and dropping the desired ion leaving it free to react with other compounds, you also want to use as pure water as possible to begin with to reduce this possibility for this effect, ideally 0TDS.

Potassium Sorbate is only needed if you intend to store the solution in the Goldilocks Zone (Room Temperature) in a container that draws in atmospheric air as the liquid is used (access point for microorganisms) and only if the solution contains all the micro elements needed to feed bacteria and mycology (unchelated single compound solutions don’t need preservative but may need acidified depending on the compound and it’s capacity to form hydroxide precipitates at higher pH, ie Zinc).

The purity of your stock water also has a role to play in this. Keeping the complete stock solution in the fridge will preserve it indefinitely.

If we are no longer talking about chelated trace elements which is what the thread is discussing and your dipping your toes in going full DIY then of all the elements only Copper, Nickel and Molybdenum need be made into stock solutions for titration into a larger complete solution as weighing out amounts for parts per billion in the complete solution means measuring out weights where they are generally within the error percentage of the device in use and as such it will skew the accuracy to total target amount.

:)
 
Hi @X3NiTH

Thanks for your response. So, am I understanding this correctly?

My chelated stock solutions should include ascorbic acid at recommended levels (I’m intending to make up with distilled water) to prevent precipitates but do not need potassium sorbate if kept in the fridge, and should last indefinitely. This would include the Cu 15% EDTA that I’m planning to use?

‘Unchelated stock solutions may or may not require acid depending on the compound’. I think the only unchelated compound I’m looking to make up as a stock will be Mo (NH4) so can you confirm if this requires the acid or not?

Once made up into the final mixed dosing solution, ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate should be added at the recommended level for the full volume, if the intent is to store the solution at room temp (I.e in the tank cabinet for easy access) The micro solution would include a mix of both chelated and unchelated compounds so the acid will prevent precipates and the potassium sorbate will preserve.

The Macro solution is KN03, KH2PO4 and K2S04, none of which are chelated (and clearly I don’t need stock solutions) so this would just need the potassium sorbate for preservation and no acid as these are not chelated compounds?

I will be making up dosing solutions for both micro and macro rather than direct dosing of dry salts (even though the tank is quite large) as I regularly travel for a few days and this is more convenient for my handy helpers at home….other than magnesium, which I was just planning on dosing dry once per week after water change.

I’m guessing that the world wouldn’t end if I just used both the preservative and the acid in everything but as a first step into DIY salts it’s good to have that basic understanding of how things interact. 😊



 
My chelated stock solutions should include ascorbic acid at recommended levels (I’m intending to make up with distilled water) to prevent precipitates but do not need potassium sorbate if kept in the fridge, and should last indefinitely. This would include the Cu 15% EDTA that I’m planning to use?

That’s correct, I would add the Ascorbic to the larger volume of distilled water and dispense this for your solutions rather than for each sample so you don’t have to measure small weights each time.

‘Unchelated stock solutions may or may not require acid depending on the compound’. I think the only unchelated compound I’m looking to make up as a stock will be Mo (NH4) so can you confirm if this requires the acid or not?

It’s probably not necessary to acidify this solution but you can always use the acidified stock distilled water first and see if there’s any precipitative reaction, I use Sodium Molybdate and that forms a stable solution without acidification, your not going to waste much salt trying it out if it doesn’t work.

Once made up into the final mixed dosing solution, ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate should be added at the recommended level for the full volume, if the intent is to store the solution at room temp (I.e in the tank cabinet for easy access) The micro solution would include a mix of both chelated and unchelated compounds so the acid will prevent precipates and the potassium sorbate will preserve.

No need to add any more Ascorbic Acid if your stock distilled water is already acidified beforehand. You only need to add the Sorbate if the solution is stored/used in a warm area away from refrigeration.

The Macro solution is KN03, KH2PO4 and K2S04, none of which are chelated (and clearly I don’t need stock solutions) so this would just need the potassium sorbate for preservation and no acid as these are not chelated compounds?

No acidification required, preservative is optional, a Macro solution containing potassium salts only is unlikely to be a breeding ground for much unless the distilled water source is not fully pure and contains micro elements in the parts per billion/trillion (enough to feed a fungal or bacterial colony).

….other than magnesium, which I was just planning on dosing dry once per week after water change.

This is fine it just makes this a remineralising strategy for waterchange rather than a dosing strategy mid week.

I’m guessing that the world wouldn’t end if I just used both the preservative and the acid in everything but as a first step into DIY salts it’s good to have that basic understanding of how things interact. 😊

This is Ok to do as long as you don’t have any precipitate formation, as I said above Acidifying the distilled water source first before distribution between the compounds you want to solve makes the process easier and saves on weighing multiple small amounts and reduces the risk of using too much Ascorbic to shift the pH, using the minimal amount I mentioned in a post above to obtain a pH below 4 (depending on the source water pH 3.2 @ 0.5g/L for 0TDS RO/DI) is all you need, if you want to shift the pH one point lower it will take 10x the weight of acid you initially added, extra stuff not needed but free to participate in precipitation reactions.

:)
 
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