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Transfer moss with BGA to a clean tank ?

dw1305

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Hi all,
I have a hunch that the smell you are detecting may be from dead/decomposing cyanobacteria.
Possibly, I don't know. I'll see if I can find out in the scientific literature.
It is the protist, Nassula aurea. If anyone knows where it is possible to obtain these creatures
It is a UK native, and I'm guessing that a most ponds and lakes should have it, but it would be difficult to get a clean sample. I'm <"pretty sure all Nassulids eat cyanobacteria">. You would need to put out a refuge (<"sponge in a fine net">) and then collect it a week later.

Cladocerans (Daphnia) definitely also eat planktonic cyanobacteria, I know this because they filter any particles by size, which is why you can feed them with paprika and gram flour etc. Lesser Flamingo <"would be another option">, but slightly problematic in the fish tank.

<"Culturing them"> (Nassulids, not Flamingos) would be "interesting".

You could try <"CCAP"> for a source? If you didn't fancy p.y.o?

cheers Darrel
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
Possibly, I don't know. I'll see if I can find out in the scientific literature.
Found out, via <"A novel cyanobacterial geosmin producer, revising GeoA distribution and dispersion patterns in Bacteria - Scientific Reports">:
........ We performed an environmental survey of cyanobacterial soil colonies to identify interesting metabolic pathways and adaptation strategies used by these microorganisms and isolated, sequenced and assembled the genome of a cyanobacterium that displayed a distinctive earthy/musty smell, typical of geosmin, confirmed by GC-MS analysis of the culture’s volatile extract. Morphological studies pointed to a new Oscillatoriales soil ecotype confirmed by phylogenetic analysis, which we named Microcoleus asticus sp. nov. Our studies of geosmin gene presence in Bacteria, revealed a scattered distribution among Cyanobacteria, Actinobacteria, Delta and Gammaproteobacteria, covering different niches..........

cheers Darrel
 

FrankR

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Hi @dw1305

I have a hunch that the smell you are detecting may be from dead/decomposing cyanobacteria. If I'm right, then removal of it should go a long way to controlling it. Only very rarely have I been aware of the smell that you are describing. I wouldn't rely on any smell from freshly-growing Cyanobacteria.

JPC
Hi @jaypeecee

My tank had that musty smell several days before the cyano appeared. The smell is almost gone now that it's dying. That's my personal experience though.

Hi @FrankR

I know of only one organism that consumes Oscillatoria. It is the protist, Nassula aurea. If anyone knows where it is possible to obtain these creatures, please let me know. In the meantime, here's a hungry Nassula aurea:



JPC

I'm doing some research as I'm battling cyano and I've read that several microorganisms eat it. I'm not a biologist, so please bear with me.
The cyano in my tank started dying as soon as I've started dosing Fritz 360. I'm not saying it's working. Could be a coincidence, as I've also changed the light spectrum and the fertiliser I'm using*.
But if it is working, then most probably the bacteria it contains are consuming the nutrients that promotes cyano growth/blooms.
However, there are organisms that consume cyano, like some Daphnia species or some Copepod species. I've also read that some amoebas are natural grazers of cyano.
There are even viruses that kill cyano, known as cyanophages.
The only thing I know for sure is that algae eating creatures do eat dead cyano. My Otos love munching on it.

*Edit= And I've added sediment from a river source.
 

jaypeecee

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Hi @FrankR

I'm doing some research as I'm battling cyano and I've read that several microorganisms eat it. I'm not a biologist, so please bear with me.

I'm not a biologist either but, out of sheer necessity, I began a search for Cyano information a few years ago.

It looks as if you're making good progress.
I've also changed the light spectrum...

This is of particular interest to me and, probably, others. Could you please let us have some details?

...and the fertiliser I'm using*.

Details, please.

That'll do for the moment.

JPC :thumbup:
 

FrankR

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Hi @jaypeecee

It looks as if you're making good progress.

Well, there's some progress. It's not completely eradicated yet though.
This is of particular interest to me and, probably, others. Could you please let us have some details?

Based on this article, some cyanobacteria strains don't do well under blue light. Although they absorb it, they use it less efficiently for photosynthesis and growth.
However, according to this article, there are cyanobacteria strains that can vary their pigment ratio and adapt to different light spectrums.
I don't know which cyano species is in my tank, so I thought I could give it a try and see what happens.

I don't know why the cyano in my tank is dying. Could be because of the blue light, or the Fritz 360, or the bacteria from the sediment I added. Or because of the combination of all the above.

As for the fertiliser, it has nothing to do with the cyano. I wasn't happy with the TNC Complete. The plants look much healthier since I've started dosing APT 3.

Please take all the above with a pinch of salt. Each tank is different and what works for me, doesn't mean that it could work for another tank.

Hi again, @FrankR.

I missed that gem on the first reading.

JPC
Oh yes, all the leaves of the Altenanthera, the Bucephalandras and the Pogostemon Helferi are completely free of cyano now.
There's still some patches on the Flame moss and on the Anubias. Also, the HC Cuba is still full of it. However, I noticed that the Otos were spending more time on the carpet plant today.
 

jaypeecee

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I don't know which cyano species is in my tank, so I thought I could give it a try and see what happens.
Hi @FrankR

It's very likely that it's one of the Oscillatoria species in your tank. Oscillatoria are so-called because the strands/filaments oscillate from side to side - often very slowly. This illustration will give you a good idea what to look for:


JPC
 

FrankR

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Hi @FrankR

Now, that's quite an achievement. Between now and tomorrow, I hope to find out more about the Fritz 360.

JPC
Fritz say on their website that 360 is a biological product that will compete with cyano. It says that it contains heterotrophic bacteria.
There are many articles saying that heterotrophic bacteria could be used as antagonists of cyanobacteria. That's why I bought it.

Now that I know what kind of cyano strain is in my tank I tried to find what strains of bacteria is in Fritz 360. I read on another forum that it contains sludge reducers, Bacillus strains among others.
So I looked it up and I found this interesting article. It says that Bacillus cereus can be used to prohibit the growth of Oscillatoria sp.
It could be snake oil. Again, I have no proof that it works in my tank. It would be interesting if someone with the proper equipment could test it and let us know what's in that bacterial soup.
 

jaypeecee

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Hi @FrankR

Thanks for your update.

I've not had any success to date using Fritz products. But, I've only tried FritzZyme 7 and TurboStart 700, which supposedly contain nitrifying bacteria for helping to kick-start the biological filter as part of the so-called tank cycling process. In my opinion, there are far better products for this specific purpose.

I discovered the CZBC1 scientific paper a couple of years ago. The first hurdle to overcome was where to obtain CZBC1 and I fell at this hurdle. But, the paper made me aware of using so-called probiotics to tackle Cyano. I managed to obtain some but it was unsuccessful against Cyano in my case. So, I changed my approach. What became apparent to me was that I needed to understand more about Cyano's nutrient requirements. And, water parameters, e.g. pH and GH. May I ask what figures you have for these two parameters in your tank?

Going back to Fritz 360, there are very few microbiologists with the required experience and analytical equipment to even attempt to analyze bacterial products. Dr Timothy Hovanec is one such scientist. He is the brains behind products that carry his name. You may find this interesting:


I suggest that we continue this discussion tomorrow.

JPC
 

FrankR

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Hi @FrankR

Thanks for your update.

I've not had any success to date using Fritz products. But, I've only tried FritzZyme 7 and TurboStart 700, which supposedly contain nitrifying bacteria for helping to kick-start the biological filter as part of the so-called tank cycling process. In my opinion, there are far better products for this specific purpose.

I discovered the CZBC1 scientific paper a couple of years ago. The first hurdle to overcome was where to obtain CZBC1 and I fell at this hurdle. But, the paper made me aware of using so-called probiotics to tackle Cyano. I managed to obtain some but it was unsuccessful against Cyano in my case. So, I changed my approach. What became apparent to me was that I needed to understand more about Cyano's nutrient requirements. And, water parameters, e.g. pH and GH. May I ask what figures you have for these two parameters in your tank?

Going back to Fritz 360, there are very few microbiologists with the required experience and analytical equipment to even attempt to analyze bacterial products. Dr Timothy Hovanec is one such scientist. He is the brains behind products that carry his name. You may find this interesting:


I suggest that we continue this discussion tomorrow.

JPC
I used Dr Tim's One and Only in the past, when I was cycling my first SW. So, I'm familiar with his products.
As a hobbyist with little experience, all "bacteria in a bottle" look the same to me. Especially when manufacturers don't disclose what's inside these bottles.

As for my parameters, last time I checked pH was 6.4 and GH was 12 dGH.

I think we should continue this discussion somewhere else. We're way off-topic 😁
 

Hanuman

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I was curious about this FritzZyme 360 product the other day when you mentioned it so I started investigating it. I asked the company behind it to answer a simple question. Here it goes along with their answer:

Question:
Hello, I have a question regarding fritz 360. You claim that it greatly reduces the need for substrate cleaning and that the bacteria is able to quickly digest organic sludge. What exactly happens to the sludge and into what is it converted to? Thank you.
Answer:
Hi. The bacteria consumes the organic molecules, like nitrate and phosphate, and breaks it down into smaller components that can be dissolved in water, and eventually will dissipate out of the system as gas. Thanks,
Not sure what else to ask. If anyone wants to ask anything else let me know and I'll just reply to their answer see if they have anything else to add.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I used Dr Tim's One and Only in the past, when I was cycling my first SW. So, I'm familiar with his products. As a hobbyist with little experience, all "bacteria in a bottle" look the same to me. Especially when manufacturers don't disclose what's inside these bottles.
Tim Hovanec was kind enough to answer a few of our questions: <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">.

cheers Darrel
 

_Maq_

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Answer:
Hi. The bacteria consumes the organic molecules, like nitrate and phosphate, and breaks it down into smaller components that can be dissolved in water, and eventually will dissipate out of the system as gas.
I think no more questions are needed. That person does not have a clue what he/she speaks about.:mad:
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I was curious about this FritzZyme 360 product the other day when you mentioned it so I started investigating it. I asked the company behind it to answer a simple question. Here it goes along with their answer:

Question: Hello, I have a question regarding fritz 360. You claim that it greatly reduces the need for substrate cleaning and that the bacteria is able to quickly digest organic sludge. What exactly happens to the sludge and into what is it converted to? Thank you.

Answer: Hi. The bacteria consumes the organic molecules, like nitrate and phosphate, and breaks it down into smaller components that can be dissolved in water, and eventually will dissipate out of the system as gas. Thanks,

Not sure what else to ask. If anyone wants to ask anything else let me know and I'll just reply to their answer see if they have anything else to add.
Brilliant, what more could you possibly want? It would certainly <"encourage me"> to buy their products.:mad:

They've added an aerial phase (new to science) to the <"global phosphorus cycle"> and they've rewritten the <"definition of what an organic molecule is">. Either they are due a Nobel prize or they may have got the <"Biohome Pondguru"> to staff their help-line.

cheers Darrel
 

FrankR

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I was curious about this FritzZyme 360 product the other day when you mentioned it so I started investigating it. I asked the company behind it to answer a simple question. Here it goes along with their answer:

Question:

Answer:

Not sure what else to ask. If anyone wants to ask anything else let me know and I'll just reply to their answer see if they have anything else to add.
That's hilarious! So, basically Fritz 360 makes your tank pass gas! 🤣🤣🤣
Either their customer service doesn't have a clue, or the company sells snake oil.
 

jaypeecee

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Hi @dw1305 & Everyone

Further to your citation in post #22, I stumbled across the following, which I find very interesting. It answers and expands on some of the perplexing questions that I've been grappling with for quite some time. I only have an abstract from the scientific paper below but I hope you find it as interesting as I have. Here it is:

"Iron forms that influence the Growth and Musty Odor Production of Selected Cyanobacteria".

Authors: S. Nakashima and M.Yagi.

Journal: Water Science & Technology (January 1992) Volume 25 Iss 2: 207 - 216

Publisher: IWA Publishing

Link: Iron Forms That Influence the Growth and Musty Odor Production of Selected Cyanobacteria | Water Science & Technology | IWA Publishing

JPC
 
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