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Wallichii substitute!

KirstyF

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Kidderminster
Hi All
I’m after some fine leaved stems for my hardish water. 12kh/gh.

I love Wallichii but don’t think they would fair well in my water so wondering if anyone has some recommendations for a substitute with a similar fine leaf type and a little bit of colour would be nice.

Running Co2, medium light, full EI for anyone not familiar with my tank.

Thanks in advance for any replies. 😊
 

My new Wallichii from APC Thailand [i.e. my LFS imported them from APC] (link above) have been in my tank for 6 days so they still have emersed leaves - but the stems are turning bright red like my current Rotalas! I'll probably need 2 more weeks before they are tall enough to photograph because I planted them behind my existing Rotalas.

Question - do Wallichiis have red stems under certain conditions or is the red stem 'confirmation' that it is definitely not Wallichii? I'll be sort of disappointed if I failed to get a true Wallichii yet again because APC is supposedly a reputable brand....
 
Question - do Wallichiis have red stems under certain conditions or is the red stem 'confirmation' that it is definitely not Wallichii?
I just brought back home 2 days ago some what seems to be Wallichii from a friend's shop. I assumed it was Wallichii but now you make me doubt. The ones I have a reddish stem.
 
I just brought back home 2 days ago some what seems to be Wallichii from a friend's shop. I assumed it was Wallichii but now you make me doubt. The ones I have a reddish stem.
Could be Vietnam or Enie?
These will lose there colour if not in the same conditions previously!
Ending up looking like Wallichii:wideyed::meh:
 
Well I don't know what's what but @Christel seems to know:
IMG_7414.jpg
IMG_7413.jpg

Those stems look pretty red to me.
 
Hi Kirsty.

Have you considered Proserpinaca palustris:

View attachment 185326

Not the best photo as they’re just poked in a spare gap at the back, sorry for the bad angle.

Not quite a fine leaf, but interesting leaves. Grows in a wide range of water hardness and dosing. The main difference will be its colour, from green to yellow to orange to red, condition dependent. Will grow healthy regardless of colour, likes to be near to the path of co2 mist and in a well lit spot.

Growth form is sort of like Mahonia that you get in the garden:

View attachment 185327

You might consider Myriophyllum Roraima. It's very easy to grow and has a nice splash of color. The only draw back is that it is a weed under high light and high CO2.

View attachment 185328

Some lovely suggestions here guys, in addition to some of the previous ideas put forward. At least if I manage to murder the Wallichii in a week flat, I’ve got some great fall backs to try. 😂

Husbandry tips are very useful too. 😊

The Wallichii have been dispatched so I’ll be as interested as anyone to see how they do, but good to know of some easier options if that doesn’t work out so well.

And if it doesn’t, no problem. You live and you learn and that’s all part of the fun!
 
I am also a little bit disappointed this thread ended up discussing lean vs EI yet again. We have many other threads about it.

What I think would be more interesting would be discussing if plants have legitimate requirements for or preferences for certain parameters.
To stay on topic for this thread, KH and maybe GH values.
Requirements would be a fairly strict range of parameters a plant requires, while preferences are just that, something the plant prefers but can still grow outside of.

I think we could allow for a little more shades of gray in our hobby when it comes to this.

Some of the worlds foremost plant experts like Christel seems to think plants have requirements/preferences.
For terrestrial plants, it is widely accepted that different plants like different things, just like @dw1305 's orchid vs tomato example.
I dont really understand why some are so convinced aquatic plants are completely different, and that preferences should be entirely disregarded or declared to be a myth.
This strikes me as really wishful thinking.
Some species of plants seem to have escaped the wishful thinking and most agree that they require certain parameters, species like Tonina, Syngonanthus etc.
Rotala wallichii is maybe not so lucky. I think a picture of wallichii in high kh water showing more than 50% of the stems stunted is not the best example to disprove "myths".
And as usual, there are some outliers, just to make our lives more fun (/interesting/difficult)
I think newbies (not talking about @KirstyF here) freaking out about their tap water can safely be told that most plants will grow just fine, except for some highly specialized species.
But for those of us who are a bit past the starting stage, I wish we could tolerate a bit of middle ground / shades of gray plants without starting to declare things myths.

I dont think one size will ever fit all
Nice post and agreed.

I apologize if I got sucked into the lean/rich vortex. It's been going on for a couple decades now, but I haven't seen it been it such a focus like this for a long time.

There is no doubt that different plants prefer different peak paraments. It's something that is underdiscussed and would likely help some people especially those newer to the hobby.

I can't tell you how many times folks have reached out to me about a particular plant that is not doing well. Many times it is a plant that is unlikely to flourish in their set up with their mix of plants.

They can do two things. One is to start chasing parameters to please one plant. Most times that leads to other plants suffering and IME rarely works well. The other is to abandon that plant and stick with ones that like they soup they are serving. Depends on how hard and long you want to bang your head against the wall.
 
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I apologize if I got sucked into the lean/rich vortex. It's been going on for a couple decades now, but I haven't seen it been it such a focus like this for a long time.
samesame.

and I would like to share my thoughts on gh/kh

sure you might find 1-2 people growing plants that prefer softer water in hard water, does this falsify anything? NO. no one is saying x plants needs softwater, they are saying it prefers softwater.
one set of cropped pictures, growing plants in x nutrients, y kh, z gh does not falsify anything. I believe vin called this conditional tolerance. say if you have more calcium then you can dose more micros without issue. if you dosed 1-2ppm Fe as proxy csmb in ~1gh water, results will probably be catastrophic.

as for clives picture I agree with you hufsa. if you claim that wallichii grows fine in hardwater, then the plants should be in atleast acceptable conditions.
 
I agree that walichii does way better in soft water, after all, she was born in it, i'd love to see close pictures of walichii in hard water
 
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Nice photo! Eminor has Myrio Tuberculatum and Myrio 'red stem' in his tank - is Myrio red stem another name for Roraima and does it like the same conditions as Tuberculatum?

Found these references in Barreport that Tuberculatum is a 'true red plant' but it says Roraima varies from yellow to red...

Edit: found red stem - wow didn't know there are so many varieties...

Eminor do you have red stem or Roraima in your tank? I've not been able to find tuberculatum in my LFS for some time, may start searching for Roraima instead. Looking forward to your next journal update!
i have myriophyllum red stem and tuberculatum, not roraima which seems to be easier
 
Wallichii arrived.

I’ve planted some in my planned end position behind my central log as this plant (if it survives) will hopefully act as a back drop there but I’ve also floated some stems, to see if they adjust better and potted up a few stems as behind the log is a really awkward place to photograph.

I will update pics weekly (for better of for worse)

You may now commence placing bets. 😂
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So….first Wallichii update:

They aren’t dead yet! 👍

The stems I floated decided to get caught up underneath the Val leaves so not sure they’ve been getting much in the way of extra Co2 and certainly not much light. I have now planted them.

C5034FD0-22C6-4D0A-A9A6-65FD1EB0DEED.jpeg

Those planted in final spot behind the log are awkward to photograph but I’m seeing new growth, albeit smaller and less of it. This area is not quite as bright as the area where I’ve potted some.

7C2494F4-CCF1-433E-8E71-773113C0A1A2.jpeg
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Those that were potted and in the brightest location, I would say are performing best so far. These are also in the area least likely to get any interruption of flow.

CF715D62-A54E-4F33-9D43-BC0AE163EA80.jpeg
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Having never grown the plant and therefore not being so sure as to what they are supposed to look like at this early stage, I’m open to comments. 😊

As mentioned in my journal, I’m currently tweaking light so will advise of changes. Just for confirmation of starting point for those interested in following:

GH/KH around 12
TDS around 330-410 (tap is 240)
PH 7.6 - 6.7….steady 0.9 drop during photoperiod.
Photoperiod 7 3/4 hrs (plus a total of 45mins ramp up/down) - just increased to 8hrs.
Fluval plant 3 Led 46 Watt and 59 Watt in a single strip above these plants.
46 W set at 52% - just increased to 55%
59 W set at 47% - just increased to 50%
I have a little aquasky in the middle in front of the log but not sure it’s adds much to these particular plants - also at 50%
Full EI dosing with 8ppm Po4, front loading and APFUK clone for macros 3 x pw. DIY salts.
50% weekly water change.

Will update again next week. 😊
 
So….first Wallichii update:

They aren’t dead yet! 👍

The stems I floated decided to get caught up underneath the Val leaves so not sure they’ve been getting much in the way of extra Co2 and certainly not much light. I have now planted them.

View attachment 186217

Those planted in final spot behind the log are awkward to photograph but I’m seeing new growth, albeit smaller and less of it. This area is not quite as bright as the area where I’ve potted some.

View attachment 186219
View attachment 186218

Those that were potted and in the brightest location, I would say are performing best so far. These are also in the area least likely to get any interruption of flow.

View attachment 186220
View attachment 186221

Having never grown the plant and therefore not being so sure as to what they are supposed to look like at this early stage, I’m open to comments. 😊

As mentioned in my journal, I’m currently tweaking light so will advise of changes. Just for confirmation of starting point for those interested in following:

GH/KH around 12
TDS around 330-410 (tap is 240)
PH 7.6 - 6.7….steady 0.9 drop during photoperiod.
Photoperiod 7 3/4 hrs (plus a total of 45mins ramp up/down) - just increased to 8hrs.
Fluval plant 3 Led 46 Watt and 59 Watt in a single strip above these plants.
46 W set at 52% - just increased to 55%
59 W set at 47% - just increased to 50%
I have a little aquasky in the middle in front of the log but not sure it’s adds much to these particular plants - also at 50%
Full EI dosing with 8ppm Po4, front loading and APFUK clone for macros 3 x pw. DIY salts.
50% weekly water change.

Will update again next week. 😊
where did you get these from? I am skeptical they are wallichii. leaves look a bit too thick, even the emmersed ones. leaves should be needle like!
 
where did you get these from? I am skeptical they are wallichii. leaves look a bit too thick, even the emmersed ones. leaves should be needle like!
You could be right. I’m not familiar enough with the plant to say. They came from aqua essentials.

Their image of the emmersed matches this with thicker leaves and the image of the submersed version shows what I would think of as Wallichii, with needle leaves. I assumed that it would transition!!
 
You could be right. I’m not familiar enough with the plant to say. They came from aqua essentials.

Their image of the emmersed matches this with thicker leaves and the image of the submersed version shows what I would think of as Wallichii, with needle leaves. I assumed that it would transition!!
emmersed should look like this!
1649434506928.png

piney leaf structure and pale stems with dark green leaves.
give it another few weeks and it should have the fine feathery leaves if it is wallichii, if not. I'd suggest you get some from tropica tissue culture!
 
emmersed should look like this!
View attachment 186224
piney leaf structure and pale stems with dark green leaves.
give it another few weeks and it should have the fine feathery leaves if it is wallichii, if not. I'd suggest you get some from tropica tissue culture!
Thanks for the observation. I’ll keep fingers crossed and we’ll see how it grows. 👍
 
So week 2 update:

Fluval Plant 3’s:
46 W set at 55% just increased to 57%
59 W set at 50% just increased to 53%

‘Potted’ plants showing best growth still. Starting to see slimmer leaves. No sign of red on the new tips as yet. (Perhaps no great surprise - high nitrate and still fairly low light and all that)
230D024E-9880-4CA7-9D1E-22120DC18655.jpeg D9F6C5DC-BFAA-43E7-B06F-6498FA940E3A.jpeg 5C4FB8C2-2755-4236-B99E-2027B9B9DBCA.jpeg

‘Planted’ plants showing slower growth but still in the running.
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No melting or signs of imminent collapse so……onwards and upwards. We’ll see what next week brings.

Any more votes for whether this is actually Wallichii yet? 😊
 
what puzzles me is that while it doesn't look like Rotala Wallichii, it doesn't fully match Rotala Rotundifolia Green either... its almost like a mix of the 2 species!


So let me toss this suggestion into the ring for the experts to comment - Is it Nanjenshan?

 
Week 3

Fluval Plant 3’s:
46 W set at 57% just increased to 60%
59 W set at 53% just increased to 55%

Unsurprisingly the potted plants are still winning.
820FE64D-2B71-41BB-90D8-9494C7FC6420.jpeg

And these looked remarkably like they were even thinking about pinking up!!
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However, did a top trim and re-plant and photographed 24hrs later and no sign of pink. 🙁 Could have just been reflection from the LED’s I guess!!
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I’ve left the bottoms in the pot with the trimmed tops just to see how they behave, although that little pot is getting a bit busy now so will have to see how they get on.

The planted plants are still ticking along. I’m trying to keep the hydrocotyle hacked back above them to give them as much light as poss but boy does it grow fast! I don’t want to remove it completely as it’s acting as good shade for all the epiphytes on the other side of the log. (This is what you get for wanting…..everything 😂) They are definitely growing more slowly but they are growing, so we will soldier on.
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Unless anything drastic happens, I’ll leave the update for a couple of weeks now. By that time, they should be back up near the top of the tank again and the lights will be up by another 5% (assuming I don’t start an algae farm in the meantime) Let’s see if they give me any colour!!

They still don’t quite look like Wallichii though. I’m considering trying a tropica in-vitro, as successfully growing the ‘wrong’ plant is perhaps not ideal. 😂
 
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