Wallichii substitute!

[KirstyF]

Hi All
I’m after some fine leaved stems for my hardish water. 12kh/gh.

I love Wallichii but don’t think they would fair well in my water so wondering if anyone has some recommendations for a substitute with a similar fine leaf type and a little bit of colour would be nice.

Running Co2, medium light, full EI for anyone not familiar with my tank.

Thanks in advance for any replies. 😊

 

[ceg4048]

I have yet to see a truly highlight tank running standard EI macros plus CSMB with a wide range of difficult plants growing well no stunting, and minimal algae . with those setups they usually have some tweaks to dosing

Hi,
I guess it's necessary to define what you mean by "truly high light". I reckon a PAR value at a certain distance below the surface is the best way to go. I mean really, a lot of T. Barr bashing goes on but have you never seen his tanks? You cannot pick and choose examples of supposed failures while ignoring obvious successes and then claim to be impartial. I mean, have you looked at the tank in the EI tutorial? At the time of those photos I was running at 5X EI. Here is my poster child for 5X EI dosing. Of course there is shading at the substrate but without shading PAR at the substrate was between 80 to 100. Again, high KH and high GH. The tanks had over 70 species.

Some of the stems in this picture appear to not be doing so well, what is the cause of this?

Again, this is due to poor CO2 at those locations. What I have to explain to all the nitpickers is that those tanks were mounted in a conservatory. Anyone who has a conservatory with lots of glass knows that it's not a popular place during the early afternoon. In this case the air temperature in the conservatory was about 42-45.C and the water temperature was about 36.C This makes it very difficult to keep CO2 in suspension. Some plants do better than others. That's just life. I was not chasing "optimal conditions". I wanted to prove that the plants can be grown in lousy conditions, so, unlike the naysayers, I intentionally made it difficult. Will some individuals fail? Yes, again this is just how life is. But I do not blame high nutrient loading. I attempt to fix the real problem in the tank and when I succeed then a high percentage of the plants make it and do well. This demonstrates how important CO2/flow/distribution is.
Do you see the P.helferi at the substrate? They look OK don't they? Well photo below shows what they looked like after a long trip from Malaysia and after 10 days in the post. So high nutrients did not wipe the helferi off the map. If CO2 is excellent then the plants can put up with a lot of things that others deem as stressful.

Clive, I always wanted to ask you about this. can you please explain why there is stunting of these plants in Co2 enriched tank including yours and Tom's who strongly advocate almost all problems are Co2 related? While Sudipta is growing some of these plant Species in Non Co2 aquarium. Thank you

Yes, I can. When you pump CO2 into a tank you actually cause the plants to become addicted to CO2. So this addiction results in the plants actually becoming MORE susceptible to minor CO2 shortfalls. CO2 concentration are not consistent in the tank. Furthermore, almost 90% of the gas we inject goes straight out the top of the tank.
When a plant is grown in a non-CO2 enriched environment they actually become resilient and are more able to deal with a CO2 limited condition. The reason for this is the reliance on Rubisco production and maintenance. This enzyme is the CO2 collector and is a very expensive resource. In a non-CO2 enriched tank, although the CO2 availability is low, the quantity is very consistent and the plant can depend on that level. The CO2 level triggers Rubisco production and low CO2 forces the plant to devote a high percentage of it's resources to this very energy expensive protein.
On the other hand, a CO2 enriched tank triggers a REDUCTION of Rubisco production, however, the CO2 partial pressure, despite what many hobbyists think, is almost always inconsistent, and this confuses the plant because the Rubisco production is first triggered to decrease and then triggered to increase and round and round it goes. So what happens is that the plant is told to reduce the Rubisco and then the CO2 level falls, sending the plant into CO2 debt. A change in Rubisco density in the leaf requires several weeks to properly adjust to the ambient CO2 level. CO2 addiction causes a crash when the level falls since the collection of CO2 is finely tuned to the ambient levels.
OK, now, you say Sudipta grows "some" of these plants in a non enriched tank. What about the others? Is it his choice to not bother with the others not included in the "some" or is he not able to grow them in a non-enriched tank?

Is it an amount directly from the tap or after injection of CO2?

Hi,
Water from the tap had lower values (about 20% lower). I then added products to the water to raise the values even higher.

Cheers,

 

[GreggZ]

@plantnoobdude in 2012 "ludwigia pantanal" looked like this under less superior lights, not the best looking during that time, but I was able to grow it just fine, I was also using Urea at that time.​

View attachment 185271
View attachment 185272


Few Years later:
View attachment 185273

far as this plant being Nutrient hog? this is not true because I can grow it just fine under Lean dosing. however adding little More PO4 does speed up the plant growth, not just for this plant but also for other plants as well.

Happi the fact that you grew it like this some time years ago under lean dosing is interesting. But it's an outlier. I can point to dozens and dozens of people who have found Pantanal to prefer richer dosing. It doesn't mean both can't be right. The vast majority of people find Pantanal to be an early indicator plant that is a nutrient hog can be true, and the fact that you managed to grow it well in lean dosing conditions can be true too.

In some ways it's similar to Wallachii. I have seen a few people grow Wallachii very well in richer nutrients, but the vast majority of people have found it does better in leaner conditions. Does the former negate the latter?

I think we need to be careful about saying we have "proved" anything in this hobby. There is always an outlier out there that would contradict almost anything. And I think we need to have some humility about our thoughts on the hobby. In my former journal I went through a phase where I added a disclaimer to my posts.

My two favorite were "I believed what I said to be true at the time I said it" and "Your mileage may vary".

The truth is in my old journal with over 200 pages and 4K posts the only thing I ever "proved" and knew for sure was what I observed in MY tank at that time with that set of variables. Even then I would often say that the correlations I was drawing might be correct.......or it could be something completely different. And the way I approached my tank changed and evolved many times over years. The hobby is not static. We try fail/succeed then learn and keep progressing.

In the end can "lean" dosing work? Yes. Can rich dosing work? Yes. They are not mutually exclusive. I have seen excellent examples of each and everything in-between.

 

[Happi]

@ceg4048​

Clive, can you explain why the plant are stunted and covered in algae in your pictures? in Mr Barr's tank the plant from the same family also looks stunted in rich co2 in post #28. also how about those people who are straightening these plants simply by changing the dosing without even touching the CO2?

 

[erwin123]

Like I mentioned, as a hobbyist that wants to spend time doing things I enjoy, I would like to have a repeatable method/system that I can follow to grow plants in my aquarium. I suppose that is the attraction of the 2hr Aquarist website which gives me a system I can follow. I use the word system because the website emphasises that dosing is only one part of the equation - flow/CO2/tank cleanliness are all critical.

If Tom Barr's system of growing A.Pedicatella with EI dosing can be easily duplicated, we wouldn't get all those posts in various forums saying "Help, my Ammannia is stunting!" I'm not doubting that Tom Barr is able to do it, but how about the "average" hobbyist At the same time, I also don't think that Happi's urea dosing technique is that easy for the "average" hobbyist, so I'm all for finding a middle ground - like using a commercially available all-in-one magic water in a bottle (Tropica, APT, TNC, Nilocg etc).

If simply reducing the amount of all-in-one fert I am dosing daily is sufficient to unstunt A. Pedicatella without needing any to do anything else (eg: no CO2 tweaking required), that would be my preferred option! And so far, it looks like its unstunting!

 

[Happi]

I also don't think that Happi's urea dosing technique is that easy for the "average" hobbyist

Erwin, but most of those "Average" hobbyist has been dosing Urea for very long time now, they just didn't know about it. ADA, Seachem Nitrogen, Tropica are few examples. some of these "Average" hobbyist has also been dosing NH4 as well.

You know there are commercial aquarium fertilizers with urea now?

 

[Hanuman]

From "Wallichii Substitute" as the title says to yet again a never ending fert discussion... This is getting exhausting. It always ends up the same.

 

[Hufsa]

I am also a little bit disappointed this thread ended up discussing lean vs EI yet again. We have many other threads about it.

What I think would be more interesting would be discussing if plants have legitimate requirements for or preferences for certain parameters.
To stay on topic for this thread, KH and maybe GH values.
Requirements would be a fairly strict range of parameters a plant requires, while preferences are just that, something the plant prefers but can still grow outside of.

I think we could allow for a little more shades of gray in our hobby when it comes to this.

Some of the worlds foremost plant experts like Christel seems to think plants have requirements/preferences.
For terrestrial plants, it is widely accepted that different plants like different things, just like @dw1305 's orchid vs tomato example.
I dont really understand why some are so convinced aquatic plants are completely different, and that preferences should be entirely disregarded or declared to be a myth.
This strikes me as really wishful thinking.
Some species of plants seem to have escaped the wishful thinking and most agree that they require certain parameters, species like Tonina, Syngonanthus etc.
Rotala wallichii is maybe not so lucky. I think a picture of wallichii in high kh water showing more than 50% of the stems stunted is not the best example to disprove "myths".
And as usual, there are some outliers, just to make our lives more fun (/interesting/difficult)
I think newbies (not talking about @KirstyF here) freaking out about their tap water can safely be told that most plants will grow just fine, except for some highly specialized species.
But for those of us who are a bit past the starting stage, I wish we could tolerate a bit of middle ground / shades of gray plants without starting to declare things myths.

I dont think one size will ever fit all

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I am also a little bit disappointed this thread ended up discussing lean vs EI yet again. We have many other threads about it..........I think we could allow for a little more shades of gray in our hobby when it comes to this.

I think that shades of grey is the answer, or as you said every thread ends up in the same way, with the various protagonists arguing from their entrenched positions.

We all hold <"faith positions">. I know I'm as guilty of this as any-one else, but if we can't have a <"reasonable debate"> then the forum declines into anarchy and we shed members, it is as simple as that.

cheers Darrel

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

I love Wallichii but don’t think they would fair well in my water so wondering if anyone has some recommendations for a substitute with a similar fine leaf type and a little bit of colour would be nice.

Running Co2, medium light, full EI for anyone not familiar with my tank.

Hi Kirsty.

Have you considered Proserpinaca palustris:

Not the best photo as they’re just poked in a spare gap at the back, sorry for the bad angle.

Not quite a fine leaf, but interesting leaves. Grows in a wide range of water hardness and dosing. The main difference will be its colour, from green to yellow to orange to red, condition dependent. Will grow healthy regardless of colour, likes to be near to the path of co2 mist and in a well lit spot.

Growth form is sort of like Mahonia that you get in the garden:

 

[JacksonL]

Hi Kirsty.

Have you considered Proserpinaca palustris:

View attachment 185326

Not the best photo as they’re just poked in a spare gap at the back, sorry for the bad angle.

Not quite a fine leaf, but interesting leaves. Grows in a wide range of water hardness and dosing. The main difference will be its colour, from green to yellow to orange to red, condition dependent. Will grow healthy regardless of colour, likes to be near to the path of co2 mist and in a well lit spot.

Growth form is sort of like Mahonia that you get in the garden:

View attachment 185327

One of my favourites, but I just can’t get it to grow reliably. Such a beautiful leaf form.

 

[Happi]

I am also a little bit disappointed this thread ended up discussing lean vs EI yet again.

It started with Wallichii, but turned into some people promoting snake oils and root tabs, while some are debunking myths.
while some are talking relevant to Wallichii, such as talking about GH/KH and dosing methods.

honestly, if you are talking about plants, fertilizer and dosing methods will be dragged into the discussion no matter what. you cannot just talk about GH/KH all day.

 

[GreggZ]

You might consider Myriophyllum Roraima. It's very easy to grow and has a nice splash of color. The only draw back is that it is a weed under high light and high CO2.

 

[JacksonL]

You might consider Myriophyllum Roraima. It's very easy to grow and has a nice splash of color. The only draw back is that it is a weed under high light and high CO2.

View attachment 185328

That it is, and I find it needs to be pulled up and the tops replanted, as it doesn’t look great when it regrows if just trimmed.

 

[Hanuman]

That it is, and I find it needs to be pulled up and the tops replanted, as it doesn’t look great when it regrows if just trimmed.

Well they will branch and grow slower if trimmed and the bottom is left so might not look great for a while. It all depends what you want to achieve. Either a bush or a few stems. Because I don't have a specific layout scape, I simply cut the bottom and replant the tops and discard the bottoms.

 

[GreggZ]

That it is, and I find it needs to be pulled up and the tops replanted, as it doesn’t look great when it regrows if just trimmed.

That's interesting. I've always liked it because I trim it often and it never skips a beat. Might have something to do with CO2 levels, nutrients, dKH, dGH who knows?

And when I "trim" it I'm pretty harsh with it. I just rip out the entire bunch, tear off about 8" or so, then stick the bunch right back in. It never seems to mind at all.

 

[JacksonL]

That's interesting. I've always liked it because I trim it often and it never skips a beat. Might have something to do with CO2 levels, nutrients, dKH, dGH who knows?

And when I "trim" it I'm pretty harsh with it. I just rip out the entire bunch, tear off about 8" or so, then stick the bunch right back in. It never seems to mind at all.

In the tank it is in it most likely is CO2 levels, I have the light and CO2 turned down considerably as it has an MC carpet I don’t want to have to trim fortnightly.
It grows beautifully if I remove the bottoms and replant the tops, but it I trim and leave the bottoms to branch, the branches grow in about half the width of the base stem.

 

[erwin123]

You might consider Myriophyllum Roraima. It's very easy to grow and has a nice splash of color. The only draw back is that it is a weed under high light and high CO2.

View attachment 185328

Nice photo! Eminor has Myrio Tuberculatum and Myrio 'red stem' in his tank - is Myrio red stem another name for Roraima and does it like the same conditions as Tuberculatum?

Found these references in Barreport that Tuberculatum is a 'true red plant' but it says Roraima varies from yellow to red...

Myriophyllum Sp. 'roraima'

This red myriophyllum variety has a fast growth rate and a suitable accent for many aquascapes.

barrreport.com

Myriophyllum Tuberculatum

Myriophyllum tuberculatum is one of the classic red plants in the hobby. It has been available in the trade for a long time, nevertheless its availability is scarce because its demand for good light and micronutrients.

barrreport.com

Edit: found red stem - wow didn't know there are so many varieties...

Myriophyllum cf. aquaticum 'Red Stem'

This milfoil is often sold in Germany as pond plant, and most frequently under the name "Myriophyllum brasiliensis" (with M. brasiliense being a synonym of M. aquaticum). In the English-speaking world, it is called Myriophyllum aq...

www.flowgrow.de

Eminor do you have red stem or Roraima in your tank? I've not been able to find tuberculatum in my LFS for some time, may start searching for Roraima instead. Looking forward to your next journal update!

 

[Hanuman]

Eminor is this what you have in your tank? I've not been able to find tuberculatum in my LFS for some time, may start searching for Roraima instead. Looking forward to your next journal update!

That is strange M. Tuberculatum is actually from South East Asia. Should be available pretty easy.

 

[GreggZ]

In the tank it is in it most likely is CO2 levels, I have the light and CO2 turned down considerably as it has an MC carpet I don’t want to have to trim fortnightly.
It grows beautifully if I remove the bottoms and replant the tops, but it I trim and leave the bottoms to branch, the branches grow in about half the width of the base stem.

Sorry I misunderstood when I read it the first time. So yours does well if you replant the tops, and not when you replant the bottoms. Heck I wouldn't know about planting the bottoms. I can only keep so much and never try to propagate more it just happens naturally.

 

[Hanuman]

Sorry I misunderstood when I read it the first time. So yours does well if you replant the tops, and not when you replant the bottoms. Heck I wouldn't know about planting the bottoms. I can only keep so much and never try to propagate more it just happens naturally.

What he meant is what I described above. Trimming and leaving the bottom to grow back is usually slow and somewhat not very nice at the beginning because the heads are small. This is a good approach if you are trying to propagate and create a bigger bush not if the aim is just to get full sized nice looking steams at all times.