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Weak stem plants. Help needed.

rusticdr

rusticdr

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2016
Messages
114
Location
India
Hi.. I have been keeping a co2 injected planted tank for almost a year now. In the first 4 months plant growth was dense and robust probably from the nutrients leached from Ada Amazonia. However after that I started dosing dry ferts..
As per ei dosing..
100 gallon tank
So.. 10 teaspoons of kno3
4 teaspoons of kh2po4
25 teaspoons of mgso4
This is mixed in 600 ml of water and dosed 50 ml every alternate day with seachem flourish inbetween. Then I had burnt my rotala.. when I tested my water.. nitrates were of the scale more 80ppm and phosphates were more than 16 ppm. So I reduced the dosing by half.
Tank dimensions.. 120× 60x 53 cm
Filters.. eheim 2217 and sunsun 303b both spray bars facing forwards along the length of tank
Circulation.. sunsun jvp 102.. 3000l/h placed on the right back top corner getting nice circular flow along the tank.
Co2.. in line reactor.. with green indicator
Lights.. 4 x 54w (2 6500k, 1 10000k and 1 3000k) 2 lights for 4 hrs and 4 lights for 3 hrs with 2 hour siesta.
I have got good growth with crypts, anubias and flame moss.
So with the weak breaking stems and loss of leaves i am thinking whether it's insufficient light.. am I rite.. Pls help.
Will post pics today.

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Yeah the pictures would be great so we can get a better idea. IME the majority of issues you come across are very rarely not enough light. Looking at what you are using there is more than enough lighting there.
 
I have same issue in my setup, some stems of rotala roundifolia are very weak and thin, but it's my mistake I kept them behind driftwood, which is blocking the lights to plants


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1.. full view
2. Ludwigia ovalis
3. Limnophila aquatica
4. Rotala.
5. Crypts & anubias doing well
76ab9f687dc7b6bfdd33f9e64ac50dbf.jpg
2860d0e358b500050d3e40a480e93d26.jpg
319bc6e485e5504c471914f5ded4af1e.jpg
5dce716cb694b35733c67fbec279de01.jpg
52a67df9f87a4adacdf16a4db9e5c788.jpg


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Limnophila aromatica were just planted last night. They were grown emersed.
If u can c that the ludwigia is unhealthy and melting. Aquatica has turned Brown. Rotala seems to be recovering but lost most of its leaves.
Have increased lighting to all 4 lights for 6 hrs and two lights only for 2 hrs as I too feel light may be the culprit.
Checked the parameters today..
Nitrates 5 ppm
Phosphates.. 2 ppm.
Co2 indicator is green.

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In my experience. Rotala (particularly macrandra and wallichii) are extremely sensitive to nutrient deficiencies/toxicities. I have no doubt that your are dosing too many nutrients which is causing an imbalance.

Crypts and such are classed as easy to care for simply because they just get by. They are very tolerant.

Why did you decide to dose EI when you had a very nutritious substrate and things were growing well?
 
Drop checker high on glass where gas exchange would indicate possibly more CO2 nearer the surface than what is present lower in the tank.
Would want lime green to appear in drop checker lower near the substrate were it me.
Believe the gas want's to escape the tanks nearly as fast as it is injected and will always indicate more CO2 nearer the surface for that reason.
 
Soilwork said:
In my experience. Rotala (particularly macrandra and wallichii) are extremely sensitive to nutrient deficiencies/toxicities. I have no doubt that your are dosing too many nutrients which is causing an imbalance.

Crypts and such are classed as easy to care for simply because they just get by. They are very tolerant.

Why did you decide to dose EI when you had a very nutritious substrate and things were growing well?
Click to expand...
Yeah.. guess I was a bit over zealous in the beginning but that was early on. I had to remove all the burnt rotala. But after that episode I brought things under control. This is a new set of rotala. For the past three months my nitrates are around 5 to 10 ppm and phosphates between 2 and 5 ppm. But still i have difficulty growing stem plants in particular.

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roadmaster said:
Drop checker high on glass where gas exchange would indicate possibly more CO2 nearer the surface than what is present lower in the tank.
Would want lime green to appear in drop checker lower near the substrate were it me.
Believe the gas want's to escape the tanks nearly as fast as it is injected and will always indicate more CO2 nearer the surface for that reason.
Click to expand...
Very valid point. I brought down the drop checker to a lower point on the glass today. Thanks.

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I agree with Darrel. For example, hard water with lots of calcium my cause issues with boron uptake. EI levels of phosphate may induce a zinc deficiency, manganese and iron share a synergistic relationship but can also antagonise one another.

@Darrel I contacted my water supplier to find out how much Zn is in my tap because it's the only metal that isn't present on the report. I missed their call back but do you have an inkling in to why Zn is not shown? Do you think it's likely so trace that it isn't worth reporting?
 
Hi all,
Soilwork said:
I contacted my water supplier to find out how much Zn is in my tap because it's the only metal that isn't present on the report. I missed their call back but do you have an inkling in to why Zn is not shown? Do you think it's likely so trace that it isn't worth reporting?
Click to expand...
Zinc is "optional" under the 2003 revision of the 1998 EU drinking water directive. The <"WHO maximum figure is 3ppm">.

cheers Darrel
 
Soilwork said:
I agree with Darrel. For example, hard water with lots of calcium my cause issues with boron uptake. EI levels of phosphate may induce a zinc deficiency, manganese and iron share a synergistic relationship but can also antagonise one another.

@Darrel I contacted my water supplier to find out how much Zn is in my tap because it's the only metal that isn't present on the report. I missed their call back but do you have an inkling in to why Zn is not shown? Do you think it's likely so trace that it isn't worth reporting?
Click to expand...
I do add weekly doses of micros (seachem flourish) and seachem iron. I know some ppl say flourish is macros but it says micro on the container. And my water is RO to which I add seachem equilibrium to make sure there s no calcium def. So u c that I have tried to cover all my bases. Anyway now that I have upped my lights to all 4 tubes for 8 hrs I am seeing pearling which I haven't seen in a while.. maybe light was the issue. But getting more string algae too.. the complexity of the planted tank keeps me intrigued.. :)

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Darrel I'm using easylife ferro which is supposedly iron sulphate. I suppose this will precipitate/oxidise quickly but will be more accessible to the plants.

I guess this is why the instructions call for 10ml per 100 litres every week which adds 1ppm of Fe.
 
Hi all,
Soilwork said:
I'm using easylife ferro which is supposedly iron sulphate. I suppose this will precipitate/oxidise quickly but will be more accessible to the plants.
Click to expand...
I don't know, but I would be surprised if the iron is just derived from iron sulphate ((ferrous) FeSO4.6H2O).

You can make your own FeEDTA from NaEDTA etc. where the Fe++(+) ion replaces the Na+. I've done this myself when we've run out of FeEDTA.

They ferrous sulphate in waste water treatment to precipitate out excess phosphorus, so I would imagine that it would come out of solution almost instantly in the aquarium.

cheers Darrel
 
Sound like a good idea only I am currently trying to avoid using EDTA in my tank or any other artificial chelate for experimental purposes.
 
Hi all,
Soilwork said:
Sound like a good idea only I am currently trying to avoid using EDTA in my tank or any other artificial chelate for experimental purposes.
Click to expand...
You could try ferrous sulphate with citric acid as a weak chelator. That was what they did originally in hydroponics before they used EDTA etc.

There are also amino acid chelators for iron, but I don't have any practical experience of these. If you have humic compounds (fulvic acid etc.) these will also act as chelators for iron to some degree.

cheers Darrel
 
Thanks Darrel. I've thought about citric acid as it is a naturally occurring organic chelate like amino acids and fulvic acids. I figured and was hoping that my eco complete substrate would be able to bind the metals which would allow plants to take them up naturally. I don't know how this would work with Fe. I guess it's not that simple due to oxidation?

Still, it would be impossible for me determine how much citric acid is required to chelate the amount of iron I put in.

Still I think this is a much better alternative to EDTA

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-40422003000600020

Failing that my plan is to slowly increase my Ferro dosing until I notice improvements.
 
Hi all,
Soilwork said:
Still, it would be impossible for me determine how much citric acid is required to chelate the amount of iron I put in.
Click to expand...
I'll ask "Regani" on Apistogramma forums, he is an organic chemist and citric acid user, so he may be able to give you a ball park figure.

Have a look at <"700 liter Amazone..">

If he can't answer I'd be surprised if any-one else could.

cheers Darrel
 
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