What causes leaves to melt, and what to do now?

[jalexst]

Thanks Ceg,

I had no idea about Glutaraldehyde

Thanks for the recommendations too, I remember reading over and over about the siesta period (!) not that i was doing it

So if a specific plants Glutaraldehyde limit is exceeded and the plant dies, is the result the same as a melt due to lack of CO2? What i mean is that when a plant melts, it could be due to lack of CO2 or an overdose of Gluteraldehyde? (for that specific plant)

Just a quick skim read of a Tom Barr thread is proving very interesting...

Cheers.

J.

 

[ceg4048]

I remember reading over and over about the siesta period (!) not that i

I'm gonna show you the origin of the myth. Remnants of it still remain here=> http://www.dennerle.eu/global/index.php ... 99&lang=en

So you can see that everything on that particular page, written and/or espoused by an otherwise reputable company is complete rubbish. The theories and conclusions are the worst kind of popular tripe, and is only fit for print in the centerfold of The Daily Star. No testing, no verification, no data, just some zany conclusion drawn up by someone in the marketing department who has a dreamy personal vision of how reality ought to be. So, unsuspecting victims read that stuff and have no reason to question it. It must be true right?

So if a specific plants Glutaraldehyde limit is exceeded and the plant dies, is the result the same as a melt due to lack of CO2? What i mean is that when a plant melts, it could be due to lack of CO2 or an overdose of Gluteraldehyde? (for that specific plant)

Yes, it's very difficult to tell the difference because we cannot see what's happening at the atomic level, we only see the result, which is melt. The only way we know the difference is by having the empirical knowledge of what plants are involved and how much Excel has been added. As I mentioned, liverworts and bladderworts have a very low tolerance. Species like Pelia, Utricularia, Riccia have a known low tolerance. Elodia and possibly Egeria respond poorly. Vallis has a higher tolerance than these but not much higher (smaller dosages have been reported successfully). On the other hand, all carpet plants, mosses, crypts, Blyxa, hygrophila, ferns, Ludwigia, Althernanthera, Micranthemum, Staurogyne, Limnophilia and many other have a high tolerance and respond brilliantly. Ambulia (Limnophilia indica I believe) should have a high tolerance, but I've not used Excel on this particular plant. So if the plant in question was one of these latter types then it's safe to conclude that melting was due to insufficient Excel dosing, not due to too much dosing. The only way to verify is to increase the Excel dosing and to see which of the originally affected specimens respond well and which respond more poorly.

Cheers,

 

[darren636]

it would seem that someone made up a load of waffle and stuck it on that website! But at least they say you do not need to replace their light tubes every year... Which is a refreshing surprise.

 

[cogo]

Hi, I am quite new in aquarium hobby (2 months). I've learn a lot from this forum, Tom Barr forum and from posts from Spider in Polish Language forums. I know that usually problems are caused by too much light and insufficient ferts - mainly CO2. However, I realized that there is another problem which is not articulated enought in EI method: not enought ferts due to active substrate like my Aquatic Nature Pro Soil.

Even if I have relatively small biomas and I dose EI recomended amounts of ferts, I had large problems with algae and plants grow rate due to not enought PO4. It is because my substrate consumes almost all of it. For every day in this week I dose 2ppm of PO4 but after some hours it is like 0.5ppm. So it is important to emphesise that in NEW TANKS WITH ACTIVE SUBSTRATE it is good to monitor level of ferts because there can be not enought phosphorus EVEN IF YOU DOSE 100% EI. Somethimes it is good to do some water tests...

 

[ceg4048]

Hello,
The expression "active substrate" is another marketing term and is completely meaningless. All substrates are active in the sense that there are bacteria living in the sediment and yes, bacteria need PO4 also, however, more than likely your problems were due to insufficient flow/distribution, NOT due to anything that the substrate was doing. If your plants were displaying deficiency symptoms then why on Earth would you need to test. The plants are telling you what you need to add. No test kit can tell you that with any greater accuracy.

As it so happens, if your flow and distribution methods are sloppy then there will be insufficient nutrient uptake efficiency and therefore you will need to add more nutrients/CO2 in order to make up for that inefficiency.

Cheers,

 

[Deano3]

Wow amazing info there I also agree you should do a tutorial very very helpful to me as I am new, so melting or any defect in plant is caused by lack of flow or not enough nutrients compared to lighting

Thanks again ceg
Dean

 

[cogo]

I do not agree that in my setup the problem was a flow or CO2 . I have 30l shrimp cube with external Tetra EX 400 and it is really enough flow in my 30cm/30cm aqua. I have also external CO2 reactor made from aquafilter and for many days without shrimps I added way to much CO2 then it is advised. One week ago I realized that my NO3 is 35ppm, and PO4 is 0,2pmm. N03 was blocked by not enough of P04. And now is the best part of this story: in last week I add 55ml of Easylife Fosfo (that is 9,9ppm for a week) and it is still not enough. I can dose 2ppm of P04 and after 3 hours I see only 0,5ppm in the water.

Other people from Polish forums indicate the same problem with Aquatic Nature Pro Soil: it eats PO4. And somethimes it is important to know that.

 

[OllieNZ]

Hi Clive,
I was wondering about cryp melt. I've just moved some crypts from my low tec 4ft into my 30l nano. The main difference between the 2 tanks is my 4ft is straight tap at 14Gdh and my nano is RO remineralised to around 3Gdh. Is this a Co2 related issue or down to the change in hardness? Only the crypts have melted the h. compacta from the same tank is showing no issues.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Ollie,
Yes this is a CO2 issue. Often the crypt will melt and then regrow leaves that are better adapted to the level of CO2 present in the tank.

I do not agree that in my setup the problem was a flow or CO2 . I have 30l shrimp cube with external Tetra EX 400 and it is really enough flow in my 30cm/30cm aqua. I have also external CO2 reactor made from aquafilter and for many days without shrimps I added way to much CO2 then it is advised. One week ago I realized that my NO3 is 35ppm, and PO4 is 0,2pmm. N03 was blocked by not enough of P04. And now is the best part of this story: in last week I add 55ml of Easylife Fosfo (that is 9,9ppm for a week) and it is still not enough. I can dose 2ppm of P04 and after 3 hours I see only 0,5ppm in the water.

Other people from Polish forums indicate the same problem with Aquatic Nature Pro Soil: it eats PO4. And somethimes it is important to know that.

When you follow the path of test kits you will forever be chasing your own tail. What is Aquatic Nature Pro Soil made out of? What do the makers say about it? If other people from Polish forums are as addicted to test kits as you are then it's no wonder they also have problems. Easylife Phospho has virtually no Phosphorous in it so you should try dosing potassium phosphate which is about 100X cheaper and therefore 100X more effective.

Cheers,

 

[Deano3]

you are very helpful ceg can i ask you a qustion do you think this kit is good to get into dosing ferts etc ad starting the learning process

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fert ... r-kit.html

think you should make a doing ferts/lighting tutorial
thanks Dean

 

[cogo]

Hi Ceg4048,

Thank you for your time.

Easylife Phospho has virtually no Phosphorous in it so you should try dosing potassium phosphate which is about 100X cheaper.

Yes, I know that know. I bought an Easylife Line when I was setting up my first aquarium 2 months ago And after that I've read a lot about EI from You and Tom Barr and I've learnt a lot

But I really do not understand why my PO4 level was so low. And it is true that I needed to dose much more EasyLife Fosfo then it is recommended by EI Calculators. Now I use KH2PO4 for two days . I'm going to dose 6-7ml 3 times a week 2g/250ml solution).

Cheers,

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Dean,
Thanks a lot mate. Glad you find the information useful. Yes that is an excellent package and I would recommend it highly. John does a good job of packaging all the things you need to get going. I actually do have a couple of tutorials. There is a forum section called Tutorials in which I discuss EI using these very same dry powders. Other members have posted articles about light and CO2 as well so it would be a good idea to check that section and read the threads. Lots of good information in that section.

Cogo, you really need to stop testing. Did you realized that PO4 test kits don't actually tell you anything about PO4 levels? No one is really quite sure what they measure, but it's very random and sometimes you actually get a correct reading.

If you have PO4 deficiency then you might see GSA or possibly stunted growth. If you have a lot of plant mass then they will also gobble up a lot of PO4 if your lighting is very strong. If you have hard water and you are not careful about how you add trace element (if you add micros at the same time as macro) then you might also be precipitating PO4 and iron from the water. There are many combinations, but GSA or weak, stunted growth are the most reliable indicators. It's difficult to troubleshoot from far away and to not have all the facts. Is this what you were seeing. I'm interested in what your plants are telling you. I never bother thinking about what a test kit tells you because test kits lie, but algae and plants always tell the truth.

Cheers,

 

[cogo]

Ceg,

Cogo, you really need to stop testing... I never bother thinking about what a test kit tells you because test kits lie, but algae and plants always tell the truth.
Cheers,

If you can INTERPRET their signs... You have to realize that I, as many of newcomers in this hobby, can not judge a condition of plants properly. I don't know how they should look like, what is a "good growth rate", what color should they have, etc. I'it much more easy to read test parameters. I know that I will learn that from my experience, but this needs time...

Here is my aquarium setup:
Age: 2 months
30x30x35 Nano Aquarium - 30l
Lamp: 26W (Solar Duo Boy http://www.aquatic-nature.be/eng_duoboy.html ) I tern it on for 8 hours.
Filtration: Tetra EX 400 with Ball Pipe
Temperature: 24C
CO2: Pressured into DIY TermoReactor made from Inline Aquafilter with Heater. I add 1,5 bouble per second od C02 1,5 hours before the light turns on. (C02 test is olive green)
Soil: Aquatic Nature Pro Soil
Roks: 8kg

Flora:
Riccia Fluitans
Rotala indica
hemianthus micranthemoides
hemianthus callitrichoides cuba
Cladophora aegagropila
Fauna:
10x Shrimp White Pearl

Fertilizers:
Dry Salts
EasyLife ProFito, Carbo, and Ferro
Dosing Method: Full classic EI 3x a week. 2ml Easy-Life Nitro, 7ml Easy-Life Fosfo (changed by dry Kh2PO4), 1ml Carbo, 1ml K form some potasium ferts, 1ml Easy-Life ProFito, 1ml Easy-Life Ferro

Problems:
1. Diatoms on rocks and glass. Now, (after adding more P04 for one week? ) diatoms are going more brown.
2. Some GSA on rocks.
2. Hemiantus Cuba do not grow well enough (many lives are very small and brown). 3 weeks ago I made 4 day blackout because I had strange brown hair algae and diatoms. And after that I lost almost half of my hemiantus cuba...)
3. Old leaves on hemiantus m. and rotala are dark green / browny, new are fresh green.
4. Some new leaves on rotala indica are without chlorofil (there are transparent "holes")

Cheers,

 

[Deano3]

Thanks ceg, I will order one of those kits, I have read ur ei dosing tutorial it's very good, so are the chemicals in that kit the same as the ones u described in ur tutorial ? Also I was planning on using a fire extinguisher co2 system would you advise using co2 and using the ferts in the kit ?

Going to order that kit and should last a while on my aquarium when arrives, only 38l

Thanks again ceg
Dean

 

[ceg4048]

Thanks ceg, I will order one of those kits, I have read ur ei dosing tutorial it's very good, so are the chemicals in that kit the same as the ones u described in ur tutorial ? Also I was planning on using a fire extinguisher co2 system would you advise using co2 and using the ferts in the kit ?

Yes they are exactly the same although depending on your water, you might need to add some Epsom salt, but leave that for now, just get started and we can make an assessment later. The EI article and these packs absolutely assume that the tank is being enriched with CO2, so yes a FE setup is the way to go. There is a Tutorial in that same forum section written by Sam (Themoluous). If you decide against using CO2 then you don't need nearly that amount of dosing.


Cogo, yes, I understand your dilemma, however, the "easiest" thing to do is not always the correct thing to do, and the problems with this ease is that the kit is like a bear trap for your mind. You will forever think that they know more than you do.

26 watts over a 8 gallon tank is a lot of light, so you are immediately stressing the plants the moment that you flood the tank. You might have been better off starting with the 13 watt version. So this high energy sets up a series of environment requirements that demands massive CO2 levels. When that amount of light turns on in the morning, you need to have the the dropchecker in the yellow, NOT olive green. This poor CO2 is the fundamental cause of all the symptoms, and I mean all of them, items 1 through 5 that you have described. The cause is exactly as I discussed in the beginning of this thread. It really has nothing to do with PO4.

When we describe the requirement for the dropchecker to be green, we are assuming that the level of lighting in the tank is below a certain threshold. If you had a PAR meter you would be able to measure the amount of energy being blasted into the tank and this radiation energy destroys plant tissue. The only way to stop the destruction is to provide massive amounts of CO2 so that the plants can make enough food to repair their damaged tissues. Your plants are simply starving to death and no amount of PO4 can fix that, only Carbon can fix it. The solution is simple;
1. Reduce the amount of light intensity either by changing the bulb to a lower wattage, or by putting something in between the lamp and the tank to block some of the light, or....
2. Increase the bubble rate so that when the lights go on the dropchecker is in the yellow.

Since you have the diatoms already blocking the light is the best way to eliminate them, and to keep the plants from disintegrating adding more CO2 is necessary, so I would suggest that you do both assuming you don't have fish or that you can put the fish somewhere else.

Cheers,

 

[cogo]

Ceg, many thanks for your advise and time

Cogo, yes, I understand your dilemma, however, the "easiest" thing to do is not always the correct thing to do, and the problems with this ease is that the kit is like a bear trap for your mind. You will forever think that they know more than you do.

I understand the risk and that many folks are trapped by "test addiction", i.e. dosing ferts based on daily / weekly testing. I know that many aquarist companies and sellers just messing in our heads in order to sell their products.
However, sometimes it is good to confirm your judgments which are based on aquarium health by doing some tests.

When that amount of light turns on in the morning, you need to have the the dropchecker in the yellow, NOT olive green. This poor CO2 is the fundamental cause of all the symptoms, and I mean all of them, items 1 through 5 that you have described.The cause is exactly as I discussed in the beginning of this thread.

Yes, thanks for that. Now I realized looking in my aqua diary that most of my measurments of PH by JBL PH Test was made after lights down (8.00PM). After turning the light off it is about 30ppm C02 (KH7, PH6,8). I've looked also on drop checker, but it is unrealible because it needs several hours to change color. However, now I see that I made 2 tests at about 4 P.M. (4 hours after lights up) and C02 was like 20-26ppm. So maybe I've got CO2 problem in the middle of the day when I am at work. I will check it out once more and increase CO2 level a little bit.

It really has nothing to do with PO4.

I disagree. Even it is CO2 problem, I had also deficiency in P04 as my test consistently shows in last week. This lack can have something to do with 2 time blackouts, my Pro Soil or my worries about overdosing Po4 (in first month of my aquarium).

The solution is simple;
1. Reduce the amount of light intensity either by changing the bulb to a lower wattage, or by putting something in between the lamp and the tank to block some of the light, or....

I don't want to do that. A month ago I bought 13W bulb and use it for 2 weeks, but nothing changes except HC wasn't pearling. My main aim for now is to grow Hemianthus Cuba and get rid of Rotala and Riccia, which I use only to increase biomas. So I will have a look once more to CO2 level and increase dosing PO4.

I would suggest that you do both assuming you don't have fish or that you can put the fish somewhere else.

I've got shrimps so I have to be careful with CO2.

All in all, thank you for your great advises in this forums. I will let you now if my situation is better.
Best wishes,

Cheers,

 

[Deano3]

Thanks a lot ceg very very helpful and informative , I will be making a co2 fire extinguisher set up along with purchasing them ferts, I am currently looking for adjustable regulator and all the parts for my co2 , also looking for a beetle counter and diffuser but don't want to pay fortune, I am starting to learn now about the plants and high light means u need high co2 an ferts to feed the plant so doesn't starve and so it has its energy to grow so slowly learning hope all goes well, if I had any questions I will let you know

Thanks again
Dean

 

[TopKat75]

Hope you guys dont mind me jumping in on these posts but i have to say Ceg that this thread has been absolutely fantastic to read as a newbie and just what i have been looking for, very educational without getting too complicated and whilst i'm still trying to understand some points you've made on a whole i feel like i know what to look for and why its happening when things go wrong I was a bit concerned when you said about liquid ferts

ceg4048 wrote:
Umm...I NEVER pay attention to manufacturers dosing recommendation. That's because manufacturers don't have my tank, with my lighting, with my flow, with my environmental stresses. So they have no clue about what's happening in my tank. In fact, I don't bother with manufacturer's dosing products at all if I can help it, because their nutrient products are about 100 times weaker than they should be.

Whilst i understand what you are saying i've recenting purchased the Easy Life fert package,
1 x ProFito 500ml
1 x Ferro 500ml
1 x Fosfo 500ml
1 x Nitro 500ml
Dont know your thoughts on this range but say for my 190l tank they recommend 20ml a week of Profito am i actually better off using 3x that amount and similarly with the other ferts? Also seeing as the Profito is meant to be an all in 1 fert do i need to be adding the others whilst i'm using it, is there such a thing as overdosing on ferts thus creating algae problems. I know you cant be exact with any answer as each tank is different but i'd be interested in knowing your thoughts on the matter,
Thanks Brooke

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Brooke,
Happy to hear that you find the data useful.

My thoughts on profito are summed up in the thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3123. It's exactly why I made the statements that you were concerned about. You would be miles ahead of the game if you ordered the EI starter pack from our sponsor aquariumplantfooUK EI Starter kit then, sit down with a large mug of tea and have a thorough read of the thread EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS in the Tutorial section of the forum.

Cheers,

 

[OllieNZ]

Hi Brooke,
Happy to hear that you find the data useful.

My thoughts on profito are summed up in the thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3123. It's exactly I made the statements that you were concerned about. You would be miles ahead of the game if you ordered the EI starter pack from our sponsor aquariumplantfooUK EI Starter kit then, sit down with a large mug of tea and have a thorough read of the thread EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS in the Tutorial section of the forum.

Cheers,

:text-+1:

I agree with clive. I use Profito but only as a trace mix alongside potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate dry powders for macronutrients