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what do you think /tank setup

discusdean

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2008
Messages
32
Location
berkshire
hi there ,
i was wondering if after a while away (ex wife lol )some of you would take a look over my new adventure and see what you think of the set up and proposed regime.was hoping that the lighting/co2/fert regime would allow the growth of a glostostima carpet ?

tank details
osaka 255 open top tank - volume with filter and pipe work approx 260 litre

lighting

4x 36watt light tubes suspended 6 inch from surface of water controlled so that 2x on for 12hrs and two others on for middle 6hrs

filtration

eheim 3e 2074 (controlled by computer for full flow at night and pulsed flow during the day)

co2 system

co2 inlet from glass spiral diffuser fed via a 2kg pressurised system(set on timer for one hour after lights on to one hour before lights off/low ph stops also)measured via in tank glass reageant checker.

heating

heated by a inline 300 watt heater and set at 26 degrees

subrstrate

2.5 inch layer of red sea flora base (pre washed)

control system

whole tank is controlled via a aquatronica unit temp/ph/lighting /heating overide

fert dosage

trace 3x a week 1/4 tsp
kn03 3x a week 3/4 tsp
k2po4 3x a week 3/16 tsp
mgs04 3x a week 1tsp
50% water change on a sunday and day of on a saturday

any help or comments would be great

dean
 
Hi,
I have no idea what this means but it doesn't sound like a good idea at all:
discusdean said:
eheim 3e 2074 (controlled by computer for full flow at night and pulsed flow during the day)
I can only assume that the term "full flow" means max available throughput and that the term "pulsed flow" means something less than max throughput. If this interpretation is valid then it makes no sense whatsoever to throttle flow during the photoperiod, when plants need max flow and to do the opposite during the dark when they don't need max flow.

discusdean said:
co2 inlet from glass spiral diffuser fed via a 2kg pressurised system(set on timer for one hour after lights on to one hour before lights off/low ph stops also)measured via in tank glass reageant checker
On an open top tank that size, with that kind of lighting for 12 hours you'll probably need at least 2 diffusers and a much bigger cylinder than that, especially if you want to grow glosso. :woot: I reccomend an inline diffuser otherwise there is a tremendous risk of anemic CO2 distribution.

discusdean said:
whole tank is controlled via a aquatronica unit temp/ph/lighting /heating overide
Using a pH controller to control CO2 is a really bad idea.

discusdean said:
50% water change on a sunday and day of on a saturday
This seems unreasonable. Why change water on two consecutive days? Wouldn't it be better to space the water changes more evenly over the week?

By the way, have you read the dropchecker article in the Tutorial section? Do you have 4DHK water? What is your distribution plan. Successful carpet plants such as gloss require a solid strategy to somehow get CO2 down to the substrate. Glosso is a high CO2 plant and this is a deep tank. You should think hard about flow/distribution.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
discusdean said:
50% water change on a sunday and day of on a saturday
This seems unreasonable. Why change water on two consecutive days? Wouldn't it be better to space the water changes more evenly over the week?

You may have misunderstood.. :) Water change on a Sunday, and no ferts on a Saturday. I would also say that for a lighting period of 12 hours, there does not seem to be enough ferts. CO2 I cannot say if that is enough or not, but as the filter is throttled down during day time there may not be enough flow.
 
cheers for the comments guys ,ceg i have already switched the filter back to full flow as like you said think i had my thoughts crossed with regards slower flow.

i have the choice of either a 5kg bottle or a 2kg bottle but was going to use the 2kg most the time as fits in cabinet and use 5kg when refilling ,i take it you mean by anemic that i will have low and high co2 regions all over the tank .i have the diffuser as close to the substrate as posssible at the moment to try and combat this ,also the diffuser is situated close to the filter inlet to try and distribute co2 better.

i think as i mis worded the sentence i was mis understood i meant that there would be a 50% water change on a sunday and a no ferts day on a saturday .

also the co2 is not controlled by a ph controller at all but by a timer but is set so that if there was a problem and the ph crashed badly or the ph raised beyond a max i set the co2 would be cut off .

i take you you guys believe that a 12 hour photo period is to long if so what would you suggest .

also what fert plan would you guys suggest if this is not enough i used an online calculator i found as have not worked anything like this out for a couple of years

i do have the 4dkh solution and have read the tutorial a few times so think i have that bit working ok

at the min the tank is plant free and has just been run up to set up heat and timers ect .so i have a bit of time to get things right so i really apreciate any help you guys can give
 
Hi,
Thanks for the clarification on the water change. I read it incorrectly. Luis figured it out. :D I just assumed anyone with "discus" in their moniker must be a water change addict. :crazy:

In any case 260L is at the size where single in tank diffusers start to become ineffectual. Probably 90% of the gas we inject goes straight out the window. The depth of the tank becomes problematic. We want the CO2 to head down to the substrate but it rises up and away in the opposite direction. The volume of the tank does not allow dissolving and penetration into the plant beds before it escapes. That's why an inline device will serve you much better than an in-tank device. This inefficiency causes higher gas consumption, especially on an open top tank.

Good to hear that the gas is strictly controlled by the timer as opposed to being controlled by the computer.

The dosages you listed actually seem OK to me. You may need to adjust up, or you may find that you can drop them lower. A lot depends on effectiveness of flow, the lighting intensity as well as CO2.

The photoperiod is less important than the intensity. I would run the tank the first 2 months or so with half the number of bulbs until the tank stabilizes. This will help you to figure out the CO2 and distribution issues. It would also be helpful to do 2X or 3X per week water changes for these first few months.

I would also keep the lights off until you put plants in the tank. This will reduce the occurrence of algae.

Cheers,
 
discusdean said:
whole tank is controlled via a aquatronica unit temp/ph/lighting /heating overide
Using a pH controller to control CO2 is a really bad idea.


Why do you say that, I'm about to buy a fully automatic c02 system which has a PH controller with it , interested in your view before I pay $ 300 odd dollars for it
How would you controll the co2 being released with a ordinary timer?
 
cheers ceg for the overview its much apreciated im not expecting this to go totally rightfrom word go (lol i wish) but with the help of the gurus on here i hope to limit the strain .

i was going to leave just one set of lights on for a few weeks but when i turn on the second set should i increase the co2 straight away or wait and see how the plants react...

i would like to add some small fish and shrimp but would you sugeest waiting till i have stabilised the second set of lights or just add slowly like any normal setup.

with regards the last post about the ph controller im not sure i can comment other than that the controller is part of the computer unit i have and only use it to give me a visual account of ph swing and for shutting of the co2 if for some reason the injection rate suddenly changes and the ph crashes(would save loosing any fish/shrimp).the system as i have it is that the co2 solonoid valve opens one hour before lights come on and then goes off one hour before the lights go out with a regulator and bubble counter to control the exacting flow of gas.

maybe read some of the co2 postes on here i found them a great starting point.
 
co2 inlet from glass spiral diffuser

Tweaking the ceramic diffuser and flow to cover a larger tank could give you headaches, also you'd spend more time refilling the CO2 canister using this strategy. I'd go for an inline CO2 reactor either external or internal. I know that it doesn't look that neat as a glass diffuser but in the end we are aiming for efficiency and this is translated in good plant growth.

Regarding the ph controller I don't have any recommendations because I don't use it nor a solenoid, I try to rely on less things that could get broken. :lol:

Good luck with your tank!

Cheers,
Mike
 
anovice said:
discusdean said:
whole tank is controlled via a aquatronica unit temp/ph/lighting /heating overide
Using a pH controller to control CO2 is a really bad idea.


Why do you say that, I'm about to buy a fully automatic c02 system which has a PH controller with it , interested in your view before I pay $ 300 odd dollars for it
How would you controll the co2 being released with a ordinary timer?
Hi,
While a pH controller can be used effectively it does not do any better a job than a simple timer. There are a couple of threads discussing this issue. Click these links to read:
Advice on a ph controller
Newbie trying to understand Algae problem

You should have a read of the complete thread in the article CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER

You'll find that it fine to use the monitoring or safety features of the controller, but not the controlling feature. I wouldn't suggest to spend 300 quid on a computer just to control CO2. If the machine has other useful functions that you need, then sure, get one, but just use a timer until you've figured out how to make the controller behave properly.

discusdean said:
...i was going to leave just one set of lights on for a few weeks but when i turn on the second set should i increase the co2 straight away or wait and see how the plants react.../quote]Well, light accelerates plant growth, so the more light, the faster the growth. Algae follow the same rule. The key point to think about is that in order to sustain a higher growth rate the plants must consume higher rates of CO2 and nutrients. The advantage algae have is that they only require several hundred times less nutrients and CO2 than higher plants need.

We can't predict at this moment what the results will be. Depending on your flow, injection rate, even on the aquscape, you may or may not have issues just with 50% of the lighting. The lower lighting gives you much more room for error as it will slow everything down. Don't be in such a hurry to use maximum energy levels. Use the first few month to figure everything out and to help you to recover from mistakes and to refine your techniques. Lighting is only one part of the equation, but it's the part that gets people into the most trouble.

discusdean said:
i would like to add some small fish and shrimp but would you sugeest waiting till i have stabilised the second set of lights or just add slowly like any normal setup
Again, whats the rush? You have the rest of your life to add critters, but adding them does not help you to figure out how to grow plants. Critters in the tank add to your problems because they restrict what you can do to either experiment or to refine your technique. Learn how to grow plants. It takes a few months to figure out what you are doing, to figure out what works and what doesn't work. You can make radical changes if things go really wrong without worrying about the tank inmates. CO2 is very toxic to fauna but is very desirable for plants, so not having fauna in the tank allows you to experiment and to learn. After you have things under control and after you figure things out, the tank will be a better and safer place in which to introduce fish.

Cheers,
 
Co2 distribution & flow around the tank is one of the secretes of getting good plant growth & little algae.
You do need other aspects like, light & ferts but the key factor is how to make the gas available to all the tanks plants in an even dose.
I have tried virtually every style of dissolving & spreading the gas around but, personally I prefer the misting methods - I find it helps to see the micro bubbles all around the tank as this gives a great indication of distribution.
I think a two bottle set up would be fantastic although expensive! If not feasible then an in-line external diffuser fed from a big external filter, retuning to a mid water spray bar + two power heads would work well.
 
cheers again ceg,

im in no rush to fill the tank with critters but thought that a few octo and shrimp would help with the cleanliness and algea but understand where you are coming from so think i will just see how it goes,

does anyone have any suggestions as to a good reliable co2 inline reactor .
 
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