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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

This is a great thread!


I’ve long been a fan of the Simply Discus article.

The problem I am having here is I don’t really see why any of these processes would advantage BBA over any other type of alga. Is there something specific about the relationship of b12 and BBA?
 
Yo-han said:
But my hypothesis is totally different so I wonder what you think about that.

I simply think organics trigger BBA to grow.
Click to expand...

Johan,

Thank you for your reply. These are my thoughts.

Please see the diagram I added earlier this evening, which may help explain what I'm trying to describe.

My suggestion is that ammonia/urea AND vitamin B12 (from Heterotrophic bacteria) cause BBA to grow and reproduce.

I assume that you are adding ammonia / urea, which are converted to nitrates, for the benefit of your plants.

Autotrophic bacteria are much more efficient than heterotrophic bacteria at converting ammonia to nitrates, about a million times more efficient. From what I have read, it is my understanding that each individual autotrophic bacteria requires a great deal more oxygen than a heterotrophic bacteria. However, the heterotrophic bacteria can multiply much more quickly and their entire population will consume much more oxygen. The heterotrophic bacteria compete with the autotrophic bacteria for oxygen and if not controlled can prevent the autotrophic bacteria from functioning.

Failing CO2 is frequently stated as being a cause of an outbreak of BBA. My suggestion is:
- CO2 fails
- Plants unable to convert CO2 to O2
- Drop in the CO2 dissolved in the water, so less carbonic acid converted to bicarbonates
- Insufficient O2 and bicarbonates to support autotrophic bacteria
- Heterotrophic bacteria able to out compete autotrophic bacteria for oxygen (and are even able to function anaerobically)
- Autotrophic bacteria stop converting ammonia to nitrates. Heterotrophic bacteria begin to dominate
- Algae receives the concentration of ammonia / urea it requires to grow and multiply

In your aquarium, with a high source of ammonium / urea, oxygen and carbon dioxide (providing bicarbonates and oxygen due to plants photosynthesising), I would say that you have a healthy population of autotrophic bacteria. In which case, the ammonia and urea that you are adding may be converted to nitrates, preventing concentrations reaching the point where a BBA outbreak would happen. However, you may have sufficiently high concentration of ammonia / urea, but insufficient vitamin B12.

My suggestion is that if the organics in your aquarium rise, this begins to favour the heterotrophic bacteria, which can result in an increase in their population. The heterotrophic bacteria may then produce sufficient vitamin B12 to cause an outbreak in your aquarium.

My suggestion is that there may be sufficient ammonia in your aquarium to cause an outbreak, but insufficient vitamin B12. However, if there is an increase in the organics in your aquarium, this provides the heterotrophic bacteria with the food they need to multiply and produce sufficient vitamin B12 to cause an outbreak.
 
BruceF,
"The problem I am having here is I don’t really see why any of these processes would advantage BBA over any other type of alga. Is there something specific about the relationship of b12 and BBA?"
It might be that this argument could be broadened out to other types of algae, that also need to get vitamin B12 from other organisms (vitamin B12 auxotrophy). However, for now, I'm just trying to build a convincing enough argument for BBA outbreaks only.
 
Hi guys, this is an interesting discussion indeed. I have two noob questions.

1. Can anyone here reliably grow BBA ( this also gives an insight as to how much we understand it's needs) (cheap is good if possible - I am considering using this to feed my SAE, which at 6cm are still voracious BBA eaters! )
2. What experiment could/should be done to falsify the theory of B12 etc?

Apologies as this might be be OT.
 
AndyMcD said:
Johan,

Thank you for your reply. These are my thoughts.

Please see the diagram I added earlier this evening, which may help explain what I'm trying to describe.

My suggestion is that ammonia/urea AND vitamin B12 (from Heterotrophic bacteria) cause BBA to grow and reproduce.

I assume that you are adding ammonia / urea, which are converted to nitrates, for the benefit of your plants.

Autotrophic bacteria are much more efficient than heterotrophic bacteria at converting ammonia to nitrates, about a million times more efficient. From what I have read, it is my understanding that each individual autotrophic bacteria requires a great deal more oxygen than a heterotrophic bacteria. However, the heterotrophic bacteria can multiply much more quickly and their entire population will consume much more oxygen. The heterotrophic bacteria compete with the autotrophic bacteria for oxygen and if not controlled can prevent the autotrophic bacteria from functioning.

Failing CO2 is frequently stated as being a cause of an outbreak of BBA. My suggestion is:
- CO2 fails
- Plants unable to convert CO2 to O2
- Drop in the CO2 dissolved in the water, so less carbonic acid converted to bicarbonates
- Insufficient O2 and bicarbonates to support autotrophic bacteria
- Heterotrophic bacteria able to out compete autotrophic bacteria for oxygen (and are even able to function anaerobically)
- Autotrophic bacteria stop converting ammonia to nitrates. Heterotrophic bacteria begin to dominate
- Algae receives the concentration of ammonia / urea it requires to grow and multiply

In your aquarium, with a high source of ammonium / urea, oxygen and carbon dioxide (providing bicarbonates and oxygen due to plants photosynthesising), I would say that you have a healthy population of autotrophic bacteria. In which case, the ammonia and urea that you are adding may be converted to nitrates, preventing concentrations reaching the point where a BBA outbreak would happen. However, you may have sufficiently high concentration of ammonia / urea, but insufficient vitamin B12.

My suggestion is that if the organics in your aquarium rise, this begins to favour the heterotrophic bacteria, which can result in an increase in their population. The heterotrophic bacteria may then produce sufficient vitamin B12 to cause an outbreak in your aquarium.

My suggestion is that there may be sufficient ammonia in your aquarium to cause an outbreak, but insufficient vitamin B12. However, if there is an increase in the organics in your aquarium, this provides the heterotrophic bacteria with the food they need to multiply and produce sufficient vitamin B12 to cause an outbreak.
Click to expand...
In that case, by simply adding B12 I would get a BBA outbreak... Send me some and I'll test!
 
Yo-Han, I agree with you when you say that an increase in organics triggers a BBA outbreak.

I'm going one step further and saying that an increase in organics gets processed by the heterotrophic bacteria and converted into compounds that the algae needs to grow and re-produce (e.g. Vitamin B12 - please Google Rhodophyta vitamin B12 autotrophy).

Please do search this. You'll find lots of scientific articles / text books / experiments that have shown this is the case.

I'm reading through the links you added. I thought it was interesting concerning an increase in C/N ratio (I.e. More organic carbon) stopping the nitrifying process (I.e. Inhibiting the autotrophic bacteria).


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That would make sense to me as I get it in my low ph tank that doesn't have much surface movement so probably low ph combined with lower o2. I don't get bba in my breeding tanks that have low ph but do have airdriven sponge filters.
 
Try it and find out. Since no one has done this before, it's the necessary experiment.
 
Guest said:
Try it and find out. Since no one has done this before, it's the necessary experiment.
Click to expand...

The link between algal growth and vitamin B12 has been proved previously, for example (Mutualistic Interaction Between Vitamin B12 Dependent Algae and Heterotrophic Bacteria Exhibit Regulation
Mutualistic interactions between vitamin B12 -dependent algae and heterotrophic bacteria exhibit regulation | Request PDF

uptakeofb12.jpe
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yo-han said:
But still, without organics and only by adding ammonia/urea and B12 do you think BBA will grow?
Click to expand...

In RO water, zero organics, ammonia/urea and B12, do I think BBA would grow? No.

Like plants, there are many other nutrients required, e.g. Phosphates. CO2 will be essential for photosynthesis. Nitrates or ammonia will be required as a Nitrogen source.

The heterotrophic bacteria will break down the proteins in the organics to amino acids and ammonia. The algae may be able to consume these amino acids also.

However, there is scientific evidence of a vitamin B12 dependency of algae which it can get from the heterotrophic bacteria.

I'm arguing that this is the link between an increase in organics and algae growth.
 
ldcgroomer said:
That would make sense to me as I get it in my low ph tank that doesn't have much surface movement so probably low ph combined with lower o2. I don't get bba in my breeding tanks that have low ph but do have airdriven sponge filters.
Click to expand...

Thanks ldcgroomer.

Based on what I'm proposing:

- Perhaps Increased organics due to Catappa leaves to drop pH, means heterotrophic bacteria population

- Autotrophic bacteria inhibited due to low pH and low O2. Please see the Biocon website (link below) for info on effect on nitrifying bacteria of low pH and low O2:

pH
The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state.

Dissolved Oxygen
Maximum nitrification rates will exist if dissolved oxygen (DO) levels exceed 80% saturation. Nitrification will not occur if DO concentrations drop to 2.0 mg/l (ppm) or less. Nitrobacter is more strongly affected by low DO than NITROSOMONAS.
 
AndyMcD said:
Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state.
Click to expand...
It should be ammonium, NH4, not ammonia, at such a low pH.

My interest is to reduce the frequency of water changes since it's wasteful to dump so much water each week. If there are ways to prevent it, that would be great, especially because we are having a historical drought which is very likely to get worse in the coming years.
 
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