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What exactly causes BBA?

jaypeecee said:
Perhaps you could explain why the recent heavy rain is your "prime suspect". And, for what reason do you think the rain could affect your tap water?
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Mostly by proces of elimination, ruling out ferts, co2, and making light unlikely due to the tanks positions. That really just leaves tapwater and plain old coincidence of course.
The tapwater here is pumped up from a nearby field at the bottom of the hills, at a depth of 30 to 60 meters. I'm reading conflicting information about how long it takes for the rainwater to reach those depths. It's all sand here, no other caps above pits the water is wun. But if the rainwater can't affect the tapwater, what else could cause a change in it? And if it didn't, what other causes could there be?
 
The numbers for last year have co2 at average less then 1, max 2.2 mg/l for 2021. No info on last month but it would be very strange if that was suddenly very different. How could I rule it out though? Moment of water changes differs per tank too. One tank is right before lights off, one tank is right before co2 turns on (which is 3 hours before lights come on), one tank is after co2 turns off but lights remain on for another 2 hours (here it could cause some due to co2 fluctuations), and one tank has its water changes just before lights come on.
 
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Hi all,
Wolf6 said:
It has rained an awful lot lately, so this is my prime suspect, but... what to measure for in tapwater that affects bba?
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jaypeecee said:
Perhaps you could explain why the recent heavy rain is your "prime suspect". And, for what reason do you think the rain could affect your tap water?
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It is likely to be a lot softer, due to the influx of naturally distilled rain water. If your tap water is surface water (or shallow aquifer) derived it is likely to show a lot of annual variation dependent upon the weather. If it comes from a deep aquifer? It is much less influenced by weather and is pretty similar all year around.
Wolf6 said:
. I'm reading conflicting information about how long it takes for the rainwater to reach those depths. It's all sand here,
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Fairly quickly through the sand.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi @Wolf6

Wolf6 said:
The numbers for last year have co2 at average less then 1, max 2.2 mg/l for 2021. No info on last month but it would be very strange if that was suddenly very different. How could I rule it out though?
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Are you able to measure water pH? This may be the critical parameter, which may have lowered as a result of the deluge of rain water. In order for what I'm saying to make any sense, please take a look at this important scientific paper:

www.researchgate.net

(PDF) Photosynthetic performance of freshwater Rhodophyta in response to temperature, irradiance, pH and diurnal rhythm

PDF | Responses of net photosynthetic rates to temperature, irradiance, pH/inorganic carbon and diurnal rhythm were analyzed in 15 populations of eight... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net www.researchgate.net

I suggest you refer to the second paragraph on page 306 where it says "The interaction between pH and the form of inorganic carbon can greatly influence productivity and distribution of freshwater macroalgae (Sheath 1984)".

From the title of the above document, you will note that it covers a range of variables/parameters.

Hope you find it interesting.

JPC
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,


It is likely to be a lot softer, due to the influx of naturally distilled rain water. If your tap water is surface water (or shallow aquifer) derived it is likely to show a lot of annual variation dependent upon the weather. If it comes from a deep aquifer? It is much less influenced by weather and is pretty similar all year around.

Fairly quickly through the sand.

cheers Darrel
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I like this explanation. Fluctuating water parameters appears to be a BBA enhancer.

It's a good idea to keep track of the TDS and pH (indirectly to pick up CO2 flux) of your tap water over time.

Both my tanks are low tech, and I always (mostly) let my WC water degas the CO2 for a day or so before adding it.

Cheers,
Michael
 
MichaelJ said:
I like this explanation. Fluctuating water parameters appears to be a BBA enhancer.
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Hi @MichaelJ

Hobbyists for some time have homed in on the need to avoid fluctuating CO2 to prevent BBA. The papers cited above lead me to think that the underlying issue is the fluctuating pH. So, the water alkalinity (KH) is also important.

JPC
 
Hi Everyone,

The following paragraph on page 311* also makes for very interesting reading:

"Photosynthesis and pH/inorganic carbon

Rates of photosynthesis in response to pH exhibited three distinct patterns (Fig. 5): (i) significantly higher rates (F= 6.1–28.4) with an evident increasing trend towards pH 8.5, suggesting higher affinity for inorganic carbon in the form of bicarbonate, as observed in C. coeruleus, A. hermannii, A. pygmaea, B. ambiguum and one population of ‘Chantransia’ (1); (ii) rates not significantly different under the three pH values with higher values under pH 4.0 or 6.5, suggesting affinity for (or indistinct use of) both carbon dioxide or bicarbonate, as found in populations of B. delicatulum, T. hispida and one population of ‘Chantransia’ (13); and (iii) significantly higher rates (F= 5.1–22.8) with an evident increasing trend towards pH 4.0, suggesting higher affinity for inorganic carbon as carbon dioxide, as seen in B. vogesiacum".

It is generally accepted that the BBA in our tanks is Audouinella. The above list includes A. hermannii and A. pygmaea. This would suggest that the BBA in our tanks is most likely to grow in alkaline water, i.e. pH in the range 7.0 to 8.5. I think it would be very worthwhile asking anyone with BBA in their tank(s) to measure pH and KH. As pH doesn't need to be measured super accurately, a narrow range pH test kit*^ should suffice.

I see this as a golden opportunity to delve deeper into the question - "What exactly causes BBA?"

* see link at What exactly causes BBA?

** e.g. JBL ProAquaTest

JPC
 
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Hi all,
jaypeecee said:
The papers cited above lead me to think that the underlying issue is the fluctuating pH.
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I'm going to speculate that <"pH and CO2 levels are both pretty constant"> in <"Eric Thomas's L052 breeding tank">.

file-jpg.jpg


cheers Darrel
 
jaypeecee said:
This would suggest that the BBA in our tanks is most likely to grow in alkaline water, i.e. pH in the range 7.0 to 8.5. I think it would be very worthwhile asking anyone with BBA in their tank(s) to measure pH and KH
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Here's my parameters jpc.

Tank 1: Minimal amount of bba Ph 7.5 ~ 6.5. Kh 1. Same tank just before an increased bba outbreak ph 7.5 ~ 6.4 (1.1 ph drop corrected within 2 days.) Kh 1.
Tank 2: Minimal amount of bba Ph 7.3 ~ 6.4. Kh 1. Same tank just before an increased bba outbreak Ph 7.3 ~ 6.2 (1.1 ph corrected within 2 days.) Kh 1
 
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John q said:
Tank 1: Minimal amount of bba Ph 7.5 ~ 6.5. Kh 1. Same tank just before an increased bba outbreak ph 7.5 ~ 6.4 (1.1 ph drop corrected within 2 days.) Kh 1.
Tank 2: Minimal amount of bba Ph 7.3 ~ 6.4. Kh 1. Same tank just before an increased bba outbreak Ph 7.3 ~ 6.2 (1.1 ph corrected within 2 days.) Kh 1
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Hi @John q

Thanks for your data.

I just want to make sure that I understand your figures. Referring to Tank 1, why is there a range of pH values (from 7.5 to 6.5)? What does the ~ symbol denote in this instance? I use this symbol to mean 'approximately'.

jaypeecee said:
This would suggest that the BBA in our tanks is most likely to grow in alkaline water, i.e. pH in the range 7.0 to 8.5.
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If I'm understanding your data correctly for both tanks, then this would dismiss my suggestion above. Is that how you see it?

JPC
 
Hi all,
jaypeecee said:
How does <"Eric Thomas's L052 breeding tank"> relate to what is being discussed here? I guess it's the conclusion that <"pH and CO2 levels are both pretty constant">. Is that correct?
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Yes, I've noticed that a lot of the high flow tanks for rheophilic plecs have BBA. Normally they don't have plants (or often lights), but some must receive enough ambient light for BBA to grow. Because they have massive water turn over the level of dissolved gases should remain pretty constant and with it pH.

If these tanks have BBA it would strongly suggest (to me) that fluctuation in pH and or oxygen/CO2 are unlikely to be the only factors in BBA growth. The best BBA growth I've ever seen was in the gruesome, and now defunct, <"pet shop in Corsham">.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi @dw1305

Thanks for your reply.

Right now, I'm not sure what to make of this BBA conundrum. But, I will persist. Do you have any thoughts on where to go from here? I really want to get back to t'other conundrum - 'Big C' where C = Cyanobacteria. It's so frustrating seeing people repeatedly running into these problems.

JPC
 
Hi John.
jaypeecee said:
What does the ~ symbol denote in this instance? I use this symbol to mean 'approximately'.
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I should have been more clear. I use CO2 so the ph drops between these levels. From x ~ to y.
jaypeecee said:
If I'm understanding your data correctly for both tanks, then this would dismiss my suggestion above. Is that how you see it?
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I wouldn't say dismiss your suggestion. We're all Gumbys John; seeking answers.

Truth is I've had bba in low tech tanks, for me fluctuating parameters as mentioned above by @MichaelJ were the desisive factors and excessive light. In high tech tanks the above are still true but the tanks are more resilient to changes.

I've pretty much resolved a bba outbreak by lowering light intensity and adding stability to the tank, can't categorically say the opposite of this "causes" bba but quite happy to say lowering light intensity and stability will "Cure" it.
 
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