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What's happening to my M Kubotai...?

Majsa

Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
290
Location
The Netherlands
Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum, I really wished I could have started with a happier subject. And sorry for the long post..

I have about a 4-5 month old Eheim Proxima 175L (70x50x50 cm) with:

Plants: Java Fern, Anubias, Vallisneria, mosses and some crypto's
Ferts: EI + EasyCarbo (spot treating some BBA)
Tech: Eheim 2x 24W T5, Eheim 2373 (350T) using spray bar, CO2, Eheim skimmer 24h on
- I know, low tech plants in a higher tech setup...
Fauna: 15 Neon Tetra's, 10 Oto's, 11 Amano shrimp and the few Kubotai's left...

So I had the Neon's & Amano's (since 2 months) and 6 Oto's (since one week) and went to a LFS on Friday to purchase 4 more Oto's and 18 M Kubotai's, bringing my stocking level to 76%. I asked if that would be too much fish in one go, but the person at the store said this wouldn't be a problem. Acclimatized them and everything seemed OK. I really liked the M Kubotai's, I had been dreaming of having them for months.

The next day (yesterday) I noticed some of the M Kubotai's had ragged fins but since I wasn't really familiar on their behaviour yet, I thought they were not acting too bad. I had seen a Kubotai to swim with the Oto's up and down the glass but thought he just needed to settle and find his mates. I thought of preventing any problems with a dose of eSHA 2000, which I thought would be safe. The water turned greenish but so far so good.

Maybe that was a fatal decision? 6 hours or so later, I saw three Kubotai's die in a very short period of time. The pattern was quite clear: one drops off the group, starts swimming up and down rapidly against the glass under the spray bar and in just a few minutes he's gone. I panicked, didn't know what to do and performed an emergency 50% water change, thinking I have poisoned the fish with the eSHA. This seemed to help, I thought, watching the fish for an hour or so and no one died. I went to bed but having difficulty to sleep (stress!), I check the fish in the middle of the night and had 14 Kubotai's left. I saw a Neon starting the dance and I heard myself shouting "No, not the Neons!..." In the morning I performed another 25% WC still thinking that I had poisoned the fish and during the day many more Kubotai's died. 2-3 bad ones I euthanised, hoping they would not affect the others. At the moment I have only 5 M Kubotai's left! Other fish and shrimp are seemingly unaffected.

I am really upset about all this, I think I should have called the LFS instead of using the eSHA but I thought I could handle this myself. After the treatment I saw the fish deteriorating, one had a big white patch at the base of the back fin and many had the base of tail turning reddish/brown. They must have been sick in the first place, didn't I look good at the store? Or is there something in my tank? I thought I would have enough oxygen with the spray bar and the skimmer. I don't have an ammonia test but NO2 was OK when testing. The Neons are fine (I think I just panicked about the one), as well as the Oto's and Amano's. One Oto seems to be extra active but I guess that's normal...

What could be the disease? Did eSHA accelerate the deaths? Do I need to fear for the other fish? I stopped the eSHA, what to do? In any case, I am calling the LFS tomorrow. Reading some posts here I thought I wouldn't need a quarantine tank, but oh I guess I was wrong...I'm so sad, I hope the Kubotai's are swimming in heavenly, well oxygenated streams. Attached some pictures, hope it worked.

Thank you so much for any responses, this is a great forum.
 

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I tried to find out what are the ingredients of esha, sadly there doesn't seem to be a duty to inform the public about what's in there. So i can't say if there are any dangerous products in there.
In getting fish from an LFS there are always dangers: How long did the LFS have them, how where they acclimatized there, and how were they acclimatized in your tank. Those fish could have had it rough, from breeder to shop, getting used to their tank, and from shop to you, gettingbused to your water. So it could be you didn't do anything wrong.
How did you acclimitize them?
 
See the difference in body shape in the second pic, between the lowest and the 3 above it.. The lowest has a nice round belly, the other 3 have a flat belly almost concave.
That is not the shape they should have, they should all have a nice round belly.. I see this a lot in any lfs especialy with the rasbora and boraras sp. What it is and why they have it i can only guess.. But for me that is the reason not to buy fish like this.

Lately those selectial danios are rocketing in popularity, in these fish sp yu also see this body shape a lot.. Some say it's inbreed, others point to fish tuberculosis or internal parasites. My guess goes to one of the last 2, also see the same with boraras or rasboras which are not yet captive bred and wild catch.

Anyway if you see this bodyshape in the lfs than how lovely you think they are do not buy.. Be patient and wait till you see a batch where every fish in the school looks equaly healthy and well shaped. I know, it's difficult, patience in this hobby is a rare thing to find..
 
I think your fish maybe suffering more than one compliant. It's likely they've been suffering for sometime if they weren't looking too clever in the the LFS, and have perhaps just succumbed to the added stress of rehoming.

eSHa products have always served me well in the past and are usually very well tolerated by all aquarium critters. For what it's worth I think you did the right thing dosing eSHa 2000, it's what I would have done. The deaths after dosing were probably coincidence.

I would do another very substantial water change and dose again. Double check the dosing requirements and don't forget to factor in the capacity of your filter and remove absorbent filter material. You can use the dosing calculator here http://www.eshalabs.eu/english/products/esha-2000supregsup.html toward the bottom of the page.

If that doesn't work give some thought to combining eSHa 2000 with EXIT and gdex. This will give you a very broad spectrum treatment.

It's sometimes difficult to resist the temptation of buying fish that are not 100%, especially if you've been hankering after a certain species for sometime, but it rarely ends well.
Reputable retailers will not sell diseased or stressed fish in the first place, and in this instance your LFS is at least partially responsible for your tank deaths.
 
Reputable retailers will not sell diseased or stressed fish in the first place, and in this instance your LFS is at least partially responsible for your tank deaths.

Today it is hard to find serious retailers which have quarantine tanks and do not just bulk and push. Or how do you say something like that in english.. All LFS near my place are all about big branche wall marts with an aquarium section.. And actualy get about all the fish from the same wholesale importer. Go straight into the display tank and are sold.. I've seen, because i know the delivery day and time. They also get the life food from them and always go on that day to buy it as fresh as possible.. It's like the wholesaler and the retailer don't give a flying figure, abnormal fish are not screened they are pushed through like nothing is wrong. It's big bussines and an answer to high demand.

And indeed 1,5 years ago i bought 5 good looking healthy Kobutai's it were the last they had that day.. All 5 are still healthy and living today.. Since then i wanted a few more, but never found a healthy batch again till today. Till now every time i saw them the majority has this flat/concave deformed belly and i know from that wholesaler it is wildcatch.. Still waiting not buying them till i see a complete healthy batch again.

One day i said to the shop clerck, "Look at these Kobutai's man!! These are all sick".. He smiled and said "Why because they all look green?" He didn't know, he didn't see and thought i was joking.. :rolleyes: Hopeless bunch..
 
I agree with you, and it's hard to find decent salespeople. On the other hand for a shop the costs are usually high ( rent, salaries, stock) and they have to compete with other shops or gardencenters, while the "regular" clients have little knowledge and only want "that red fish". So margins are little and taking good care of the fish isn't feasible costwise
I only know of a small number of shops which are knowledgable enough and dare to do it right. Even for those it's not easy economicaly.
Compare for instance with Germany where people are much more willing to spend money on their hobby. More and better shops there.
I guess the "scaping" interest is economicaly more interesting for shops because there are better margins on the hardware, be it most hardware can easily be bought online compared to live stock.
 
Yeah, I agree too. It's all too often an unfortunate reality in the trade these days. Generally speaking though our national chain of Maidenhead Aquatics are usually very responsible; but there are always exceptions.
And there are still quite a few independent retailers in the UK that run a tight ship. For instance, Destination Aquatics in Bedford is well worth the hour drive to get the best stock.
 
Thank you all for your responses.

Edvet, I acclimatised the fish by setting the two bags they came in in the tank and adding water every once in a while, until they were almost full. Then carefully moved the fish into the tank with a net. This took about 2 hours. I had the lights and the CO2 off for half a day that day.

I agree I should have observed the fish better in the shop and not buy them in the first place. That would have saved me a lot of trouble trying to save the fish...I called the LFS, I was afraid they'd be defensive but actually the conversation was OK. He was about to check the tank where the fish were but unfortunately I had bought all the Kubotai's he had. He will give me a call when he has a new batch and give me a nice price, for what it's worth. At least I know better now to watch the fish more closely (good point to pay attention to the bellies) and will not buy if they are not OK. As zozo said I will need to get used to the idea it can take longer before I get good, healthy fish.

What troubles me though is that the LFS person said that doing 50% water changes weekly is too much, and that my KH of 7,5 is high...that doesn't sound right, does it?

In the meanwhile, things are getting calmer in the tank. The 5 Kubotai's are still alive, although one is very thin and looks like he's on a survival mode. The other 4 look much better, rounder and more active, without their own school sometimes hanging out with the neons. About the advice to dose eSHA again, I am quite scared to do that, at least not before the weekend when I can see what's happening. If I remove the sick one as a precaution (I don't have much hope for him) and the others remain OK, would it be better for the other inhabitants not to dose, or would it rather be good to do it in order to prevent any further issues in the tank?

I have to figure out for myself how to go further, maybe buy only 6 or so new fish at a time (provided they are healthy) or even set up a quarantine tank after all...although I will have hard time explaining to my family that we need a 3rd tank (I have a 40L one too with CPD's and shrimp).
 
I would ask the LFS if he would hold the next shipment of fishes for a week with a small deposit from you/me.
This way, maybe the fishes that are weak or sickly will exhibit symptom's in HIs tank rather than yours/mine.
50 % weekly water changes have been the norm for me for a few decades.
Some Discus folks change 75 to 90 % of their water daily with no ill effect's.
With acclimation method mentioned,, I might add a couple drops of PRIME water conditioner to bag while acclimating for more than an hour.
this would be cheap insurance against possible ammonia from fish waste/respiration during prolonged acclimation in relatively small container.
 
My prefered way of acclimatisation is: empty the bag in a bucket, drip tankwater in said bucket till half full, almost empty the bucket in the sink (close the sink in case a fish jumps out:cool:), drip tank water again till bucket is full, empty bucket in tank.
 
Hi all,
I like to get the fish out of the traveling bag, and into the tank, fairly rapidly. I'm not a CO2 user, and I'm working on the theory that the tank water is going to be much better quality than the water in the bag.

I pour 9/10 of the bag water away (through a net just in case), and then I put the bag (with lights out) into the tank and let the tank water run into the bag. After that I just ignore the bag until the fish have swum out. If they haven't swum out after ~twenty minutes I gently slide them into the tank by lifting the bag out base first.

cheers Darrel
 
That's pretty much how I do it too Darrel, I don't really see the point in prolonging the agony, I think it only stresses the fish more. The only difference is I buy fish and introduce them first thing in the morning, before the gas comes on. That way they adapt to the raising CO2 concentration without any stress.
 
The little fish didn't make it through the night, but the other 4 are happily swimming with the neons and seem just fine. I expect them to survive. I have picked up my regular maintenance and won't be doing any significant changes in the near future.
Thanks for all the ideas, I am definitely learning here...I am glad I posted, many things get clearer for me and hopefully others can learn from this too.
I like roadmaster's idea of LFS holding the shipment, I wonder if they'll do that for me.
 
I like to get the fish out of the traveling bag, and into the tank, fairly rapidly.

Same here.. They immediately go into a bucket with the water from the bag.. Than i syphon half that volume from the tank into the bucket, few minutes later i do that again and duoble the volume. Than i net them out into the tank and all this within 15 minutes.. Than i alwas feed live food and observe.. Usualy all them frenzy immediately. I reckon it must be heaven for them..

Never realy have problems with it.. Tho i always expect a percentage to die the first days or weeks. If non do, that's a bonus and a sign of all are healthy fish.

Sounds cruel, but i see it like, that is what mother nature is and she aint the forgiving type.. You might think all is at a constant with what you see is what you get, but it's far from it. Temperaturs can change rather quickly in a natural aquatic invironment as also do water parameters. As does in air, it has currents and layers of different densities and temps etc. Slowly mixing at occlusion fronts bumping into eachother, where vortexes and turbulances develop. Water behaves in basic the same manner, aerodynamica isn't much different from hydrodynamica.

And fish are evolved and addapted to live in hydrodynamic invironments. They do not get a warning sign, before they swim through another density layer with different temps and parameters, they just do it all the time. Think of tributaries, river/stream deltas where different water parameters meet. Mud streams and flood streams etc. bringing different parameters and temperatures.

It shouldn't shock them, if it does they obviously are very weak to begin with, than leaving weak fish in a bag is not going to improve them in any way... And more likely beyond any help. As many of us already experienced, even with treating still a few die. And if they don't who can say it was the treatment saving them?
 
Me thinks there is not a whole lot about glass box of water that mimics nature from fish perspective.
In the wild fishes can move from warmer water to deeper cooler water, or up or down stream for several kilometer's till they find comfortable condition's. .
Are not tides or rain's or current's to speak of in glass box of water to carry away pollutant's.
The fishes very much rely on us for their chances of long term survival.
We dump food's,fertilizer's in the tank near daily in some cases,CO2 level's near toxic,blast em with light, maybe select poor tankmates,lapse maint ,etc.
I began trying to keep plant's for them in an effort to improve water quality.
The weed's I can take or leave, but I can easily spend hour's on the weekend just watching the fishes as opposed to that that passes for entertainment on the Television.
 
I imagine your success in quick acclimatisation would depend on how closely the shop mimics your water. If both you and a local shop are using the same tap water then 20 minutes and a few swigs of the new water might be all it needs. If the shop is running hard tap water and you are running soft RO, for example, then I would guess that's a much bigger and more stressful change. My understanding is that going from very hard to soft can also effect osmotic pressure and increase stress. I would also guess it depends on the fish, some are just more sensitive than others which would influence the success rate.

"Never realy have problems with it.. Tho i always expect a percentage to die the first days or weeks."

I would have a different definition of no problems - I don't expect any to die! Yes, occasionally it happens but I wouldn't expect it as the norm. Stuff mother nature, once we take them from the wild we are responsible for their welfare not her!

I'd look at drip acclimatisation - it's an easy way to do a gradual introduction and save you having to go back and forth adding new water.
 
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