Whats this then?

dw1305

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zozo

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Lots of people reported adding few ml Vinegar also has positive effect.. Obviously, lowering Ph releasing CO² from the carbonates nutralizing the acid. :) And maybe, dunno how well this works in minor changes, acidity seems to improve cation exchange as well. Thus any acids used with common sense has positive effects.. Phosphoric acids are used in horticultur during blooming periods since it accelerates bllooming since it adds also a bit of P extra..

But be carefull not to over do and create a pH crash..
 

jaypeecee

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Hi Folks,

Do we really think this product is a complete no-no? Even if it turns out to be the world's most expensive water, is it worth putting it to the test? Apart from checking its pH, are there any other quick checks that could be done on this? According to Dennerle, "CarboElixier BIO is not a replacement for a complete fertiliser". But, Dennerle does say that it contains iron, manganese and potassium. Are there any organic compounds (i.e. sources of carbon) that aquatic plants can absorb in sufficient quantity to sustain them - other than glutaraldehyde? And, would this be through the leaves, roots or both?

I'm asking because I'd be happy to buy a 250ml bottle of this magic potion and try it with some very small Java Fern and Congo Fern plants that I have in a 5 litre* tank.

* Yes, it really is just five litres!

JPC
 

jaypeecee

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Are there any organic compounds (i.e. sources of carbon) that aquatic plants can absorb in sufficient quantity to sustain them - other than glutaraldehyde?

Hi Folks,

I've just realized that we're not only talking organic compounds. Inorganic compounds/ions could also supply carbon and they do, e.g. bicarbonate (HCO3-).

JPC
 

jaypeecee

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I've just realized that we're not only talking organic compounds. Inorganic compounds/ions could also supply carbon and they do, e.g. bicarbonate (HCO3-).

Hi Folks,

In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally? I haven't a clue but, perhaps @ceg4048/@zozo/@alto/@dw1305/@Zeus. can help out here?

*Dissolved Inorganic Carbon

JPC
 

jaypeecee

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In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally? I haven't a clue but, perhaps @ceg4048/@zozo/@alto/@dw1305/@Zeus. can help out here?

*Dissolved Inorganic Carbon

Hi Folks,

I had a look at Diana Walstad's book* and she gives this reference:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304377091900376

Unfortunately, anything more than the Abstract comes with a price tag!

* Ecology of the Planted Aquarium

JPC
 

X3NiTH

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I’ll hazard a guess that it’s a brown liquid and if it is then likely to be Humic and Fulvic acids which are pretty good chelating long carbon chain molecules most easily uptaken by plants, the extra elements may because they are present in the source material for this concoction and analysis shows it’s presence or that a powdered version is reconstituted in water that contains these elements possibly by direct addition and are chelated in the final mixture. The most basic source would be unrefined Leonardite and because Iron and Manganese are easily mineralised in the environment this may explain its content.
 

jaypeecee

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I’ll hazard a guess that it’s a brown liquid and if it is then likely to be Humic and Fulvic acids which are pretty good chelating long carbon chain molecules most easily uptaken by plants...

Hi @X3NiTH

I wonder if this would enable dissolved organics (DOCs) to be made available to plants? Wouldn't that be good or am I overlooking something? (Answer: probably!). The plants would benefit, the fish would probably benefit and algae/cyano may be depleted of some nutrients. Sounds too good to be true (says me just pinching myself to make sure I'm awake and not just dreaming). 🤔

JPC
 

Witcher

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Citric acid based

I think you may be quite close, from Dennerle website:
"With potassium, iron, manganese and boron"

So we may have mixture of Potassium citrate K3C6H5O7, Iron citrate C6H5FeO7, Manganese citrate C6H6MnO7 and Boron citrate C6H5BO7. Or potentially gluconate form of each of those ingredients.
 

alto

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Hi Folks,

In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally? I haven't a clue but, perhaps @ceg4048/@zozo/@alto/@dw1305/@Zeus. can help out here?

*Dissolved Inorganic Carbon

JPC
Thank Darrel for this summary article :)
(of course I can’t recall in which thread he provided the link :rolleyes: )

Underwater photosynthesis of submerged plants – recent advances and methods
Ole Pedersen1,2,3*, Timothy D. Colmer3 and Kaj Sand-Jensen1

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2013.00140/full
 

zozo

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Hi @zozo

I tried to follow the link above but I got a 'Runtime Error'. Any suggestions? Has a bit got chopped off the end of the URL?

TIA.

JPC

If you google Citric Acid Cycle in plants you find a lot of articles and videos on it.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...hUKEwiqt5XMpMTpAhXL16QKHfLPBwwQ4dUDCAY&uact=5

also known as the Krebs cycle or tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle, is a series of chemical reactions in the cell that breaks down food molecules into carbon dioxide, water, and energy. In plants and animals (eukaryotes), these reactions take place in the matrix of the mitochondria of the cell as part of cellular respiration.

I don't know enough about this complex if this cycle can be enhanced by adding citric acid only. All tho it might be, quite a lot of people add acid (Vinegar) to their planted tanks and report enhanced plant growth. Adding acid lowers the pH and frees up carbons and other elements in the water column for plants to use. If plants use the acid also for other means I have no clue about... :nailbiting:
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally?
My guess would be that the majority of them are using the CO2 until you get well above pH7.

The reason is back to the <"T(D)IC curves">, the cumulative amount of DIC is set by the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, and once you have a any carbonate buffering the pH rises to ~pH8, and all your DIC is as HCO3- ions. This is going to be the normal state for a lot of the world's aquatic vegetation.

This one should be available to everyone <"Ecological imperatives for aquatic CO2-concentrating mechanisms"> and covers this area pretty exhaustively. There is scientific research on Ottelia alismoides, which shows that it has multiple methods of DIC acquisition (<"Jack of all trades – C4 photosynthesis, CAM and HCO3− use in the same tissue">).

cheers Darrel
 

jaypeecee

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My guess would be that the majority of them are using the CO2 until you get well above pH7.

Hi @dw1305

Sorry, Darrel, I don't think i made myself clear.

What I was trying to ask was this - at pH = 6.5, would a given plant absorb CO2 and HCO3- equally as this mix is roughly 50:50? If not, what is the most efficient way of getting carbon into this plant? Let's call it Plant X for convenience. And, if Plant X cannot absorb carbon efficiently, is the simplest answer to replace it with a different plant that prefers pH less than 7.0 and soft water? In short, do we just need to match plants to whatever water parameters we have in our tanks? So, I guess this would be pH, KH and GH.

JPC
 
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