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Why are my plants struggling to grow?

Keys_Tanks

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2020
Messages
39
Location
Sheffield
Hi guys being new to the forum, I am after some advice on my plants.
Spec-
90lt
Twinstar 600E V2
Oase Biomaster 250
Co2 injection
Both ferts being auto dosed on alternate days using D-D dosing pumps.

I am currently dosing EI ferts in my 90lt tank following AquariumPlantFoodUks advice but doubled phosphates.

The 53b and hipporoides are such a slow growers within this tank and I cannot figure why. And I've come to the realisation it must be nutrient based.

From the photos i am going to attach shows the clear deficiency within the plants. Unfortunately the camera does not show the overall paleness around the edges of the leaves.

Thanks in advance
Josh
View attachment 156944View attachment 156943View attachment 156945View attachment 156946View attachment 156946View attachment 156947
 
Hi all,
Welcome to the forum. Click on the <"linked threads">, and <"links within them">, and it should give you a bit of idea about the forum.
From the photos i am going to attach shows the clear deficiency within the plants.
It doesn't look too bad, but it looks likely to be an iron (Fe), or <"just possibly manganese (Mn), issue">. Deficiency of these elements causes paling (chlorosis), and neither are mobile within the plant, <"which means deficiency effects new leaves">. For non-plant mobile elements it takes a while before new healthy leaves grow.

Do you know how hard your water is? Because of where you live it could be soft water from a "black peak" reservoir, or hard water from a limestone aquifer. Iron deficiencies are much more likely in hard water, where you need a chelator like <"FeEDDHA or FeDTPA">.
but doubled phosphates.
Was their specific reason for this? There is no way of knowing, but it may have <"contributed to your problems">. Phosphorus (P) is <"highly mobile within the plant">, so that isn't your problem at the moment.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi Darrel thanks for the detailed reply and the welcome,

I live in Sheffield, water is pretty hard. Running around a TDs of 300 in the aquarium and 200 from the tap.
Do you need me to test my water for parameters to help you understand better?

I believe the photos Arent brilliant because in person it's much more pale around the edges and the leaves look so strange and remind me of tissue paper(crinkly)

I have doubled my phosphates as I use the same ei mix for all of my high-tech aquariums. I experienced some extremely bad GSA in others and this is how I got around it. I got given the advice from a group on Facebook.
The same chaps at this group also said I dont need to add any additional trace elements? And rather pump in more phosphates to get around this deficiency I am facing. What's really confused me hence why I've decided to get more info and advice.

If so how do I supplement these other trace elements that I am lacking in?

Thanks
Josh
 
Hi all,
I live in Sheffield, water is pretty hard. Running around a TDs of 300 in the aquarium and 200 from the tap.
That is useful to know, it makes iron deficiencies more likely, just because nearly all <"iron salts are insoluble"> in alkaline water, water above pH7.

Because of this we have to chelate iron, with <"something like FeEDTA">, rather than just adding a soluble salt (like iron chloride (FeCl3)). When we add an iron salt to hard water the the ferric iron (Fe+++) ions will be mopped up almost instantly to form insoluble iron oxide ("rust") iron hydroxide, iron carbonate, iron phosphate etc.

All plants can only take up nutrients as ions from solution.
Do you need me to test my water for parameters to help you understand better?
No, not really. The figures from your <"water supplier"> would <"be useful">, mainly because they have an analytical lab. with lots of <"fancy kit">. The problem for us is that we don't have analytical kit, so we are reliant on <"test kits and meters">. Some of them <"work pretty well">, but some are more problematic. I use an alternative <"testing approach"> which uses the <"leaf colour and growth of a floating plant"> as a proxy for nutrient status.

I like a conductivity (TDS) meter, it isn't the most useful parameter, but it is <"nice and straightforward">.
I experienced some extremely bad GSA in others and this is how I got around it. I got given the advice from a group on Facebook.
Tom Barr @plantbrain found that adding more phosphate (PO4---) controlled GSA, he didn't (and we still don't) know how it works. My guess is that it works by reducing iron availability.
Arent brilliant because in person it's much more pale around the edges
Have a look at <"Rotala rotundifolia - Growth Issues">. This is @sciencefiction 's iron deficient Hygrophila corymbosa picture (from <"that thread">)

iron2_zpsa522aade-jpg-jpg.jpg

The same chaps at this group also said I dont need to add any additional trace elements? And rather pump in more phosphates to get around this deficiency I am facing.
It definitely isn't a phosphate deficiency. Phosphate (PO4---) is <"highly mobile within the plant">, so the plant can continually export from old to new leaves, any deficiency symptoms would occur in old leaves and you would get a fairly instant response when it was no longer limiting plant growth.
What's really confused me hence why I've decided to get more info and advice.
I know this is a forum, and I'm not trying to be funny, but the advice on forums, by a lot of LFS, by the purveyors of test kits, pH buffers etc. is generally cr*p.

Hopefully we <"can do a bit better">.
If so how do I supplement these other trace elements that I am lacking in?
I'd probably start by just adding a separate iron source, <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> would do.

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:
Sheffield South

Supply Zone ZDB02​


For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.
Hardness Results
Hardness Level
ValueSlightly Hard
StandardNo standard applies
UK/EU Limit
Hardness Clark
Value10.49
StandardNo standard applies
UK/EU LimitDegrees Clark
Hardness German
Value8.39
StandardNo standard applies
UK/EU LimitGerman Degrees
Hardness French
Value14.99
StandardNo standard applies
UK/EU LimitFrench Degrees
For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.
Data is for period 31-May-2020 to 30-June-2020
Water Quality Summary Report
1,2-Dichloroethane
Average<0.30
Maximum<0.30
Minimum<0.30
UK/EU Limit3.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Aldrin
Average<0.003
Maximum<0.003
Minimum<0.003
UK/EU Limit0.03
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Aluminium
Average<14
Maximum<14
Minimum<14
UK/EU Limit200.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Ammonium
Average<0.064
Maximum<0.064
Minimum<0.064
UK/EU Limit0.5
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Benzene
Average<0.12
Maximum<0.12
Minimum<0.12
UK/EU Limit1.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Boron
Average<0.030
Maximum<0.030
Minimum<0.030
UK/EU Limit1.0
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Chloride
Average17.37
Maximum29.40
Minimum10.60
UK/EU Limit250.0
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Clostridium perfringens
Average0
Maximum0
Minimum0
UK/EU Limit0.0
UnitsNo. / 100ml
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Coliform Bacteria
Average0
Maximum0
Minimum0
UK/EU Limit0.0
UnitsNo. / 100ml
Number of Results8
Samples above PCV Limit0
Colony Count After 72 Hours at 22ºC
Average0
Maximum0
Minimum0
UK/EU LimitNo abnormal change
UnitsNo. / 100ml
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Colour
Average<1.98
Maximum<2.20
Minimum<1.30
UK/EU Limit20.0
Unitsmg/l Pt/Co
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Conductivity
Average355
Maximum357
Minimum353
UK/EU Limit2500.0
UnitsµS/cm at 20ºC
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Cyanide
Average<4
Maximum<4
Minimum<4
UK/EU Limit50.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Dieldrin
Average<0.008
Maximum<0.008
Minimum<0.008
UK/EU Limit0.03
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
E. coli
Average0
Maximum0
Minimum0
UK/EU Limit0.0
UnitsNo. / 100ml
Number of Results8
Samples above PCV Limit0
Free Chlorine
Average0.35
Maximum0.40
Minimum0.22
UK/EU LimitNo abnormal change
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results8
Samples above PCV Limit0
Heptachlor
Average<0.003
Maximum<0.003
Minimum<0.003
UK/EU Limit0.03
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Heptachlor epoxide
Average0.000
Maximum0.000
Minimum0.000
UK/EU Limit0.03
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Iron
Average<8
Maximum<8
Minimum<8
UK/EU Limit200.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Manganese
Average<0.7
Maximum<0.7
Minimum<0.7
UK/EU Limit50.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Mercury
Average<0.015
Maximum<0.015
Minimum<0.015
UK/EU Limit1.0
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Odour
Average0
Maximum0
Minimum0
UK/EU LimitAcceptable to Customer and no abnormal change
UnitsDilution Number
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Pesticides Other
Average<0.010
Maximum0.027
Minimum<0.003
UK/EU Limit0.1
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results160
Samples above PCV Limit0
pH
Average7.66
Maximum7.77
Minimum7.61
UK/EU LimitMin 6.5, Max 9.5
UnitspH value
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Sulphate
Average37
Maximum53
Minimum29
UK/EU Limit250.0
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Taste
Average0
Maximum0
Minimum0
UK/EU LimitAcceptable to Customer and no abnormal change
UnitsDilution Number
Number of Results4
Samples above PCV Limit0
Total Organic Carbon
Average1.2
Maximum1.9
Minimum0.8
UK/EU LimitNo abnormal change
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Total Pesticides
Average0.004
Maximum0.012
Minimum0.000
UK/EU Limit0.5
Unitsµg/l
Number of Results3
Samples above PCV Limit0
Turbidity
Average<0.12
Maximum<0.12
Minimum<0.12
UK/EU Limit4.0
UnitsNTU
Number of Results4
Samples
 
Thanks for taking your time to reply to my plant problem i have just ordered the product off Amazon and will be with me for Sunday.

I have been looking at my plants again today and they are looking even lighter. And I am noticing some green dots on the leaves too now but I'm not too worried about this.
20201126_172206.jpg
20201126_180702.jpg

Can you help me understand how I should dose this additional supplement?
I think it's also an ideal time as my Ei ferts bottles are going to be depleted this weekend so u need to get my mix on Haha!

Thanks

Josh
 

Attachments

  • 20201126_172206.jpg
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    6.9 MB · Views: 113
Hi @Keys_Tanks

Additional to the points raised by @dw1305, I think it's also important to consider lighting intensity and CO2 concentration, both of which are very important in terms of growth. It's not easy to quantify lighting without specialist equipment. And the human eye is unreliable for judging the brightness of plant lighting. So, we have to experiment to see what works for each tank setup. You may find that reducing the lighting brightness is helpful. And, how long is your lighting on for (what is known as the photoperiod)? Then, there is CO2. I see that you are using a drop checker (DC). How long does it take from CO2 switching ON before the DC liquid is lime green? Does this happen before the lighting switches ON? Does the lighting ramp up slowly? That's enough questions for now.

JPC
 
Jeez that's a hell of an in depth water report, my local authority just told me my water was wet :D
 
Hey Jaypeecee,

As you might have seen I am using a twinstar 600e currently have my light come on at 14:00 and using a timer I have it so it lights upto 70% over the space of 30 mins anand then ramps down at 19.45 and turns off at 20:00

I rarely see the drop checker at a nice lime green when the lights come on. And today checking this I've noticed it's not really green. When the lights come on should I aim for this to be a lime green.

Thanks for the help

Josh
 
Yes a nice lime green colour at lights on.

your filter is under powerEd for your size if tank when using co2. I’d suggest running co2 inline, swapping the prefilters to the course sponges to maintain flow. May be worth supplementing the filter with something like the Eheim skim 350 to help with flow.

The biomaster 600 would be the more suitable filter for a 90L.


Either way CO2 on perhaps 3 hours before lights. Move the drop checker around to test it.
 
Thanks for the advice @Siege, I am injecting my co2 via a co2 art inline diffuser.
Currently with my financial position I'm going to gave to stick with this but will have it in mind for when I upgrade.
Although within my tank i get a very good flow from the filter and as far as I am aware very little dead spots or collection of waste organics.

Thanks
Josh
 
Hi all,
I have been looking at my plants again today and they are looking even lighter.
I'm 99% sure that is iron deficiency.
Jeez that's a hell of an in depth water report, my local authority just told me my water was wet
Yes, it is quite interesting. My guess is that there is a third sheet as well with NO3 etc values? It looks a good quality water supply.

The conductivity values are really similar (355 microS ~ 225 ppm TDS) and the dKH value (8.39) is somewhere in the middle (slightly hard) and it makes me think it is a blended supply (lime rich aquifer water and Pennine reservoir water), and possibly blended to a conductivity value (there are only 4 values, but they are almost identical).
Can you help me understand how I should dose this additional supplement?
Have a look at <"Chempak and dosing calculator"> and <"Could it be...">

cheers Darrel
 
Hey Darrel!
Somehow I missed them readings. (Added below)

Glad the water quality seems good to you. I'm going to take on the same approach as you and work from the health of my plants that is visible. The TFKUK Facebook group kinda drilled the get out your test kit sort of approach into me, personally I think I will enjoy it much more as I find myself constantly chasing values that may be completely false and or fluctuating due to it being a cheap 25 pound kit from API.

Sorry to bother you I've tried to follow the link to the guide of the iron supplement and I am lost Haha. I'll have a couple more reads of the guide to try and figure it.

Thanks

Josh





Nitrate
Average8.79
Maximum10.93
Minimum6.65
UK/EU Limit50.0
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results2
Samples above PCV Limit0
Nitrite
Average<0.005
Maximum<0.005
Minimum<0.005
UK/EU Limit0.5
Unitsmg/l
Number of Results2
Samples above PCV Limit0
Nitrite - Nitrate Calculated
Average0.18
Maximum0.22
Minimum0.13
UK/EU Limit<1
Units-
Number of Results2
Samples above PCV Limit0
 
Hi Darrel,
I think I was running off fumes yesterday reading through your previous threads... just had a read through. Does this look right?
Screenshot_20201127-163834_Chrome.jpg

After following what you said saying that the chempack Fe is at 2% therefore I need to times it by five to find the volume that I need to add.

How do I add this? Is it weekly Just pour 2.25g of the chempack on one day or split over the days? I just couldnt find this part.

I think I've plugged in all the correct values. But I am unsure.

So I am going to make the new batch of ferts tommorow using the Ei would you reccomend anything to me otherwise I am going to follow APFUK guide but with still double phosphates.

Let me know what you think?

Thankyou for all the help I really appreciate it.

Josh
 
Hi all,
After following what you said saying that the chempack Fe is at 2% therefore I need to times it by five to find the volume that I need to add.
Is it weekly Just pour 2.25g of the chempack on one day
I just tip it in, but you could dissolve it in a small amount of RO/DI water if you felt happier. With all the micro elements (trace elements) you normally just need <"some", rather than "none">.

No, the workings are right for a 90L tank, 2.25g in 90L to give 0.5 ppm Fe. Because you are only aiming for 0.5 ppm Fe "the 2.5 ppm target" (in the Rotala Butterfly calculator) takes into account the 2% (rather than 10%) FeDTPA in the Chempak product.

cheers Darrel
 
Hey Siege!
yeah I'll dash over some photos of the tank. Currently running it at 21°c to keep algea at minimum. I noticed a year ago having higher temps I had no end of algae.
I set up this tank about 2 months ago now matey.

Cheers
Josh
20201110152113_IMG_1467.JPG
20201110180335_IMG_1500.JPG

20201110133802_IMG_1426.JPG
 
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