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Wipe Out
- Thread starter hotweldfire
- Start date
hotweldfire
Member
Hello all. Thanks for your sympathy and kind comments.
Quick update - 3 blue pearls still alive in the main tank. Sticking together and moving around slowly. Nothing else has emerged from the blyxa undergrowth.
Lost one more snow bee in my nano last night as well as the CRS I had pulled out of my main tank the night before. Most sakuras appear to have survived but down to 2 or 3 snow/golden bees from an original 15 or so.
Supplier has responded to me and pretty inadequately. Not a short brusque email mind, a longer fairly well considered response. But one that basically boils down to this statement:
"We do not take responsibility for loss of livestock for any customer. "
I've had enough messages and emails from other people either correctly guessing who the supplier is or recounting similar experiences to make me suspect the plants even more than I did. In addition this comment from the supplier is pretty suspicious:
"To date you are the only customer in the last 4 or 5 months to complain about this. "
Only the last 4 or 5 months? Not ever? Which suggests to me that they are aware of a potential risk because of customer losses in the past. Unless they've only been running for 4 or 5 months but I don't believe that's the case.
Now, I'm not in the business of messing with other people's livelihoods. Also, I don't know for sure it was the plants although that's perhaps a meaningless thing to say. The only way to have known was to test the plants for toxic substances before they went in and put them in one of two fairly identical tanks and see if there was a different number of losses over the next 24 hours. Let's just say I'm pretty confident the plants were the cause without being able to be sure.
What I am pretty sure about is that the offending substance was NOT copper. This is because there has not been a loss of snails in either tank. As Darrel suggest it's likely to be a pesticide or insecticide or some such.
However, I also feel responsible for other people's tanks and wouldn't want the same to happen to them. I do feel that this is part of the role of a forum like this - for members to keep each other informed of potential risks to their livestock and tanks.
BUT, I don't want to get the forum into trouble. I won't post the name of the supplier on this thread. I'd be willing to PM people on request but only if mods think this is OK. I will wait for advice from a moderator before responding to any such requests.
Quick update - 3 blue pearls still alive in the main tank. Sticking together and moving around slowly. Nothing else has emerged from the blyxa undergrowth.
Lost one more snow bee in my nano last night as well as the CRS I had pulled out of my main tank the night before. Most sakuras appear to have survived but down to 2 or 3 snow/golden bees from an original 15 or so.
Supplier has responded to me and pretty inadequately. Not a short brusque email mind, a longer fairly well considered response. But one that basically boils down to this statement:
"We do not take responsibility for loss of livestock for any customer. "
I've had enough messages and emails from other people either correctly guessing who the supplier is or recounting similar experiences to make me suspect the plants even more than I did. In addition this comment from the supplier is pretty suspicious:
"To date you are the only customer in the last 4 or 5 months to complain about this. "
Only the last 4 or 5 months? Not ever? Which suggests to me that they are aware of a potential risk because of customer losses in the past. Unless they've only been running for 4 or 5 months but I don't believe that's the case.
Now, I'm not in the business of messing with other people's livelihoods. Also, I don't know for sure it was the plants although that's perhaps a meaningless thing to say. The only way to have known was to test the plants for toxic substances before they went in and put them in one of two fairly identical tanks and see if there was a different number of losses over the next 24 hours. Let's just say I'm pretty confident the plants were the cause without being able to be sure.
What I am pretty sure about is that the offending substance was NOT copper. This is because there has not been a loss of snails in either tank. As Darrel suggest it's likely to be a pesticide or insecticide or some such.
However, I also feel responsible for other people's tanks and wouldn't want the same to happen to them. I do feel that this is part of the role of a forum like this - for members to keep each other informed of potential risks to their livestock and tanks.
BUT, I don't want to get the forum into trouble. I won't post the name of the supplier on this thread. I'd be willing to PM people on request but only if mods think this is OK. I will wait for advice from a moderator before responding to any such requests.
Piece-of-fish
Member
I would think that it has to be made public. The supplier has to treat plants before selling.
Just imagine how many others suffered from this on other forums/notforums.
UKAPS is not the main customer of Asian plants afterall. Thousands are available from ebay which are usually supplied from the same importer.
Just imagine how many others suffered from this on other forums/notforums.
UKAPS is not the main customer of Asian plants afterall. Thousands are available from ebay which are usually supplied from the same importer.
Ian Holdich
Member
I have read that this is becoming a more and more common problem, especially as shrimp tanks are becoming more and more popular. This is more reason for me to stick to Tropica and Aquafluer. At least we know what we're getting with these plants. The seller should at least state that the plants need quarantining before use.
It must be gutting for you, i'd be fuming as well!
It must be gutting for you, i'd be fuming as well!
Hi all,
My suspicion would be an insecticide like Permethrin, synthetic pyrethroids have very low toxicity to mammals (including humans), and virtually no phytotoxicity, but are extremely effective against all arthropods, not only insects but also crustaceans. Unfortunately nearly all insecticides that are toxic to insects will also be toxic to shrimps, and this will include organochlorines, organophosphates, pyrethroids, neonicotinoids etc. so it is pick a name, unless they tell you which compound they use.
This is the average LC50 (the lethal conc. needed to kill 50% of the trial organisms) category for Permethrin poisoning in crustaceans LC50 < 100ug/L - "Very highly toxic" details <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35397> & studies specifically with crustaceans: <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35397&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans>.
This is the data for Cabaryl <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32816&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans>, and that would be another possibility.
cheers Darrel
My suspicion would be an insecticide like Permethrin, synthetic pyrethroids have very low toxicity to mammals (including humans), and virtually no phytotoxicity, but are extremely effective against all arthropods, not only insects but also crustaceans. Unfortunately nearly all insecticides that are toxic to insects will also be toxic to shrimps, and this will include organochlorines, organophosphates, pyrethroids, neonicotinoids etc. so it is pick a name, unless they tell you which compound they use.
This is the average LC50 (the lethal conc. needed to kill 50% of the trial organisms) category for Permethrin poisoning in crustaceans LC50 < 100ug/L - "Very highly toxic" details <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35397> & studies specifically with crustaceans: <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35397&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans>.
This is the data for Cabaryl <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32816&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans>, and that would be another possibility.
cheers Darrel
ghostsword
Member
Being the devils advocate.. To publish names without proof is not good.. 
It could have been the plants, no doubt about that, but then it could have been anything else. Although it points to the plants, as it seems the only constant on the two tanks.
Also, you need to share some of that blame; with such an expensive collection of shrimp, and living in London, with ample access to a shops that sell Tropica, and also knowing that Asian plants more often than not have pesticides sprayed on their plants, why would you buy or not have enough care with any plant that you would use on a shrimp tank?
Many people here have lost shrimp or fish due to pesticides, many of the leading experts on the field advocate even using only in vitro plants on shrimp tanks.
I completely understand that we look for cheap plants, and instead of buying safely, and actually supporting the local trade, we buy cheap, and then risk loosing a lot of money, like you did.
I know who the seller is. I buy often from them, but I can tell you that many of those plants go into emersed setups, where there are no shrimps, or even fish.
Also pesticides do sometimes stay on the leaves and stems of plants, rinsing is not enough.
Also note that many of the pesticides present on those plants, if any, may not be just damaging to the shrimp and fish, they can also be damaging to your own health, as you put your hands on the tank, some tanks are open top and you may have kids at home.
So let this be a lesson to all, although many may know it already, you got shrimp and expensive fish, buy safely. What do I mean buy safely? Buy Tropica, Aquafleur, and from traders that support the forum, or people that you know.
Again, I buy from the supplier in question, but I take precautions.
I have lost shrimp from simply touching the cat, that had a flea collar, and not washing the hands when working on the tank, now imagine if I had placed a suspect plant on the tank?
It could have been the plants, no doubt about that, but then it could have been anything else. Although it points to the plants, as it seems the only constant on the two tanks. Also, you need to share some of that blame; with such an expensive collection of shrimp, and living in London, with ample access to a shops that sell Tropica, and also knowing that Asian plants more often than not have pesticides sprayed on their plants, why would you buy or not have enough care with any plant that you would use on a shrimp tank?
Many people here have lost shrimp or fish due to pesticides, many of the leading experts on the field advocate even using only in vitro plants on shrimp tanks.
I completely understand that we look for cheap plants, and instead of buying safely, and actually supporting the local trade, we buy cheap, and then risk loosing a lot of money, like you did.
I know who the seller is. I buy often from them, but I can tell you that many of those plants go into emersed setups, where there are no shrimps, or even fish.
Also pesticides do sometimes stay on the leaves and stems of plants, rinsing is not enough.
Also note that many of the pesticides present on those plants, if any, may not be just damaging to the shrimp and fish, they can also be damaging to your own health, as you put your hands on the tank, some tanks are open top and you may have kids at home.
So let this be a lesson to all, although many may know it already, you got shrimp and expensive fish, buy safely. What do I mean buy safely? Buy Tropica, Aquafleur, and from traders that support the forum, or people that you know.
Again, I buy from the supplier in question, but I take precautions.
I have lost shrimp from simply touching the cat, that had a flea collar, and not washing the hands when working on the tank, now imagine if I had placed a suspect plant on the tank?
I agree, you are handling the loss very well indeed. Sorry to hear about it.
Ghostsword, I have also bought from this supplier (if it is who i think it is), but for me cost was not the reason: they get hold of plants that tropica do not grow, and when planting a biotope this is important.
Ghostsword, I have also bought from this supplier (if it is who i think it is), but for me cost was not the reason: they get hold of plants that tropica do not grow, and when planting a biotope this is important.
Piece-of-fish
Member
Although precautions could be made it has to be said LARGE PRINT IN RED on sellers website that these plants may kill your shrimp!!!
There are absolutely no excuses for the seller. Business owners like that discredit whole hobby. Why not treat plants accordingly, ok, spend more time, raise the price a bit but make your plants safe.
There were numbers of different complaints if I am guessing right, isnt it the time to fix the issues?
There are absolutely no excuses for the seller. Business owners like that discredit whole hobby. Why not treat plants accordingly, ok, spend more time, raise the price a bit but make your plants safe.
There were numbers of different complaints if I am guessing right, isnt it the time to fix the issues?
ghostsword
Member
You are right Edis, I also believe that it should be advertised. It would be fair I think.
With shrimp being so expensive and the pesticides so deadly so quickly, the seller should advertise in a disclaimer the risks.
But if the plants absorb the nasty stuff through the leaves and stems, there is really no way to get it right.
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With shrimp being so expensive and the pesticides so deadly so quickly, the seller should advertise in a disclaimer the risks.
But if the plants absorb the nasty stuff through the leaves and stems, there is really no way to get it right.
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hotweldfire
Member
ghostsword said:Being the devils advocate.. To publish names without proof is not good..
Also, you need to share some of that blame; with such an expensive collection of shrimp, and living in London, with ample access to a shops that sell Tropica, and also knowing that Asian plants more often than not have pesticides sprayed on their plants, why would you buy or not have enough care with any plant that you would use on a shrimp tank?
Luis, you make some reasonable arguments here. You are right, I can't be sure it was the plants. For example, there might have been something on my hands (there wasn't by the way, they were clean) and because I put my hands in both tanks when putting the plants in that could account for why both tanks took casualties.
However, let's be clear about what adequate proof would constitute. I would either have had to conduct a controlled experiment with two near identical tanks. Or I would needed to have tested the plants for toxic substances. Obviously I, and almost every other hobbyist, do not have the facilities to do that.
I do think I was foolish putting the plants in with foam and weights and, in the case of the P. helferi, rockwool. I was in a hurry and didn't have time to plant. However, I disagree with you about where I bought from. I think Ed is right in that the supplier has to take responsibility for informing customers about the potential risks of their products. Whilst price was a consideration like Greenjar availability of certain plants was the main reason I bought from them. It wasn't even rare plants, just couldn't get any E. vivipara, which I needed to bulk up the wall of it I already have, from any of the main retailers or either of my usual LFS.
If the supplier is aware of the risks because they know the growers use the pesticide then they are culpable. They have a responsibility to inform customers of that risk. Naturally they will never do that because they will never sell any plants that way but the responsible solution is to not buy in from those suppliers.
To be clear I did not know that this supplier might do this or that far east growers had a reputation for using pesticides/insecticides on plants. I would never have bought from them if I had. I would also point out that I am not a noob. I've only been into planted tanks for a year but have got quite into it during that period. Therefore I would surmise that there are plenty of people on this forum, and plenty who have not even found this forum, who would know less than me and buy from the supplier innocently not being aware of the risks.
As such I feel it is only responsible of me to inform people of who the supplier is. I will not do that on this thread. I don't think that is appropriate and after speaking to a mod I also feel that this might pose a threat to the forum. However, said mod is happy for me to tell people by PM. So if you would like me to tell you drop me a line. Apologies to those who already have and who I haven't responded to. I will do so now.
ghostsword
Member
Thanks dude, your arguments make a lot of sense. Sorry if I came out a bit wrong, but I wrongly assumed that it was common knowledge that most asian growers use pesticides on their plants.
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Common knowledge? Its up to the seller to inform the customers that the plants might be treated with something that could potentially kill your invertebrates. I remember once going down to a store in South London to purchase some plants and be told that some of the plants were not ready to be sold yet and must wait a couple of weeks before I could buy them, or if I did buy them they must not be placed in a tank with shrimp and then it was up to me on what to do.ghostsword said:but I wrongly assumed that it was common knowledge that most asian growers use pesticides on their plants.
Maybe someone,smarter than me,could write an article warning members about plants from Asia and make it a sticky in the inverts forum :idea: .
I'm with Luis and thought it was common knowledge.BUT,I guess you think it is when you know .
I'm with Luis and thought it was common knowledge.BUT,I guess you think it is when you know
.
ghostsword
Member
Thanks Nelson.
Paulo don't shoot me for thinking it was common knowledge. I will apologize again.
It is indeed a sad situation.
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Paulo don't shoot me for thinking it was common knowledge.
I will apologize again. It is indeed a sad situation.
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Ian Holdich
Member
nelson said:
thats a good idea Nelson, if it can save people hard earned money and the trouble, i think it's worth it.
