Is this normal for staurogyne repens

[papa_c]

Here's and image of S.repens,

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/18/R3YIDo.jpg

I dose EI and have CO2 injection, tank parameters have remained constant,

It seems to have lost the lower leaves but now happily starting to bush out. it was growing fine.

Is this normal of should I have trimmed it earlier to encourage the bushing earlier?

 

[pepedopolous]

Staurogyne can be a PITA sometimes. It needs a lot of CO2 which is difficult to ensure at the substrate level. When leaves fall off stem plants it seems to be a sign of poor CO2 or that the flow isn't getting the CO2 to it.

I can clearly see CO2 mist in the photo but is it enough and are you getting the CO2 to a good level (lime green drop checker) by the time the lights go on?

I've had this plant deteriorate badly due to running a week with no CO2 but it can come back if you fix the conditions.

As for trimming, I don't feel expert enough to advise exactly what you should do. However, you could try trimming it and replanting the tops. Staurogyne has really deep roots, so if it is healthy you can cut it down so that only a pair of leaves is left and it will grow back bushy and make a thick carpet.

Have a look at this thread: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/tips-on-the-perfect-staurogyne-repens-carpet.18388/

P

 

[papa_c]

Co2 was my initial though so I moved my DC to 5cm from the substrate at the back of the tank and it is yellow when lights come on. Ph profile shows a drop of between .6 and .7 from gas on to lights on.

I've ruled out circulation as I have 2x1400 lph in 200l volume with a strong flow at substrate level.
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[Dantrasy]

They are reaching up for more light. What lighting are your using? What duration? Height above tank?

 

[Paulo Soares]

Why is the Co2 and not enough light in the bottom?

PAR / PUR?

 

[papa_c]

Using home built led. Hi intensity LEDs on for a duration of 6 hours a day total watt 120 watts, tank depth is 60cm.

 

[Paulo Soares]

Watt is energy... not the spectrum light the plants need. And watt doens´t mean the light breaks the water to the bottom
With that depth you really need higher kelvins.

If you care give a reading here:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquarium_lighting.html

 

[Paulo Soares]

As regarding Co2 and flow my opinion is the same i give to another friend of us.

What is the point of geting 1 ppm drop in the PH by the injection of the Co2 if those lights may not be proper?

First of all you need to be sure that you get correct light. PAR! And then yes aply the co2 as you mentioned.

Amounts of water flow to distribute the co2 as you mentioned and you think that by increasing the flow you solved the problem.. well i do not agree. If you don´t have a very good difuser/reactor to really break the co2 you also have another problem. And this is more important than the flow. Cause if you have large bubbles coming from your difuser you will have losses of co2 and hard time to dissolve it in the tank.
The more the bubbles are break inside the difuser the best. Like dust coming out is perfect, cause than yes the co2 is imediately dissolved and become as part integrated of the water, as soon as he comes out of the difuser, and few losses (almost zero) to the surface. As few losses to the surface of Co2 than you wont have to worry of geting high levels of flow at the surface creating more o2 to fight the co2 coming to the top.
As of course with Co2 being pretty well integrated as soon he comes out of the difuser, than is in the water itself. And then you wont need an amount of circulation. Just enough to see plants moving a little bit. Just a little bit.

Regard this and face the problem otherwise:

The more big bubbles of co2 you have coming of the difuser, the more time you need to force them ciuculating in the botom so they explode integrating in the water before getting the surface. And as most people have this issue what they do?
More flow! To oblige them being in the bottom cause they need more time to explode/dissolve....

This is my opinion.
Many thanks to all.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Hey papa, this is co2 related unless the plants are new. When first planted they sometimes drop leaves that were grown emersed. However if co2 is good they that won't happen.

You can totally forget about kelvin ratings of light spectrum, it has been proved time and time again that it is entirely irrelevant. PAR is a possibility but unlikely as most plants we grow will do so just fine even under very low par as long as co2 is optimum. Thinking about light is a very American thing to worry about and even the likes of respected US aquatic growers such as Tom Barr will attest to its irrelevance. Light penetration through water is also irrelevant at 60cm, go 600cm then it would be a discussion point. The linked article really shouldn't say 'facts' at the top.

I know it's frustrating but even when your equipment is up to the job and you can see good co2 moving all around the tank it doesn't guarantee all is well. Try cutting the tops off and replant, the stems that should have rooted will sprout new stems and the replanted tops shouldn't drop their leaves. If they do then you absolutely need to fiddle with co2 quantity and/or distribution.
Listen to your plants, they aren't happy so make small single adjustments over time and see how they react, it's the only way to learn.
Good luck.





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[Paulo Soares]

I know it's frustrating but even when your equipment is up to the job and you can see good co2 moving all around the tank it doesn't guarantee all is well.

See Co2 moving why? Cause it´s not being properly dissolved don´t you think so? That´s why i point to have a really good diffuser.
Increasing movement of the water to see bubbles everywhere is a solution? Do you find this in a ADA assembling? Or in the Green Machine, or even in T. Barr set up´s? I don´t or at least i´ve never saw.. I see the water almost without movement in their tanks.

As for the light, if the article or others are not relevant why "Tropica" only uses 6500 K in their culture? Exclusively 6500 K. (as well 25º water degrees) - another issue to take a look.
And i have many others reports from other sources claiming the same.

This i entirely agree:

Try cutting the tops off and replant, the stems that should have rooted will sprout new stems and the replanted tops shouldn't drop their leaves. If they do then you absolutely need to fiddle with co2 quantity and/or distribution

But then again... if the same problem returns (wich i hope not) what could be the advise then? And the cause?
Here´s the question..

Hugs

 

[Paulo Soares]

Taking under consideration that:

Nitrogen is absorbed predominantly by the roots in forms of NO3.
Phosphorus is also absorved by the roots even in extremely few concentrations.
Iron is also abosrved by the roots.So far so good..
Now.. Plants absorb Co2 through their leaves to start the food creation process and need light to do so. They absorb water and nutrients through their roots. These nutrients climb through the stem to rise through the whole plant reaching the leaves, where photosynthesis will occur.

Now someone look at the picture and see if that is logic. Cause if you didn´t have Co2 you wouldn´t have any leaves at all... the leaves you have are those reaching the light don´t you think?
If doesn´t.. What seems to be missing as the root never need light they are underground?

I´m only asking.. i would like somenone to explain.
Best regards.

 

[Paulo Soares]

Sorry for the picture it was made in a hurry. The intention is to explain.

 

[Paulo Soares]

Chek the flow at the end, look at the difuser and where is the light

 

[Mick.Dk]

I know, I'm probaply on the edge here..........
- Just to clarify;
- Tropica use (allmost) only T5 6.500 K tubes ON RUNNING TANKS. Production facilities/procedure are a whole different story (and not public).
- Tropica use T5 6.500 K tubes because they meet the needs of BOTH plants AND eyes of humans observing.......

 

[Iain Sutherland]

See Co2 moving why? Cause it´s not being properly dissolved don´t you think so? That´s why i point to have a really good diffuser.

sure a good diffuser or reactor will make a difference to the quantity of co2 used, however, i and many others have had tanks run £5 ebay diffusers that have what you'd consider large bubbles without issue...
sensations of red by iainsutherland24, on Flickr

Increasing movement of the water to see bubbles everywhere is a solution? Do you find this in a ADA assembling? Or in the Green Machine, or even in T. Barr set up´s? I don´t or at least i´ve never saw.. I see the water almost without movement in their tanks.

i understand what your saying and there have been numerous threads about how ADA run there tanks (advance search them) in what looks to be defiance to our commonly excepted theories..... what is clear is that ADA tanks run pretty low light and have huge amounts of maintenance etc.... However is you look at most of the ADA videos you dont see high plant movement but look closely and you will see continuous very gentle movement. TGM and Tom Barr both run high volume turn over which is actually more important and very different than the visual water movement.

As for the light, if the article or others are not relevant why "Tropica" only uses 6500 K in their culture? Exclusively 6500 K. (as well 25º water degrees) - another issue to take a look.

Couldnt comment on the emersed cultures but id hazard a guess their display tanks mostly run the standard bulbs... whatever the Kelvin....also i reckon Mick can grow plants under a candle!!
I would also say that while it is common for background stem plants to drop there lower leaves as they get shaded if there is adequate co2 this wont happen. This is the back of the same tank and you can clearly see the healthy emersed and shaded growth still attached and happy 6 months after planting...
overgrown back by iainsutherland24, on Flickr

But then again... if the same problem returns (wich i hope not) what could be the advise then? And the cause?
Here´s the question..

Doing this would eliminate the possibility of emersed growth dying off, if it happens again then you know it is co2.

Now.. Plants absorb Co2 through their leaves to start the food creation process and need light to do so. They absorb water and nutrients through their roots. These nutrients climb through the stem to rise through the whole plant reaching the leaves, where photosynthesis will occur.
Now someone look at the picture and see if that is logic. Cause if you didn´t have Co2 you wouldn´t have any leaves at all... the leaves you have are those reaching the light don´t you think?
If doesn´t.. What seems to be missing as the root never need light they are underground?
I´m only asking.. i would like somenone to explain.
Best regards.

Id suggest you are misinterpreting what the plant is doing here.... if a plant has structural issues it normally because of co2 as the building blocks of life. The plant is dumping its lower leaves to put the little available co2 into growing taller to find a more hospitable environment for itself... an area with more co2. If it had legs it would walk itself to a new spot but it doesnt so it goes up

I would strongly recommend doing an advanced search for posts from ceg4048, clive is the guru on plant biology and what really makes plants tick as well as translating that biology into simple terms for the likes of me
try search words of deficency, photosynthesis, kelvin etc Apologies but i dont have time at the moment.

 

[papa_c]

All, some very interesting comments and thoughts, this is the what I love about our hobby, the different views on what I thought was going to be a simple answer!
@PAOLO, I have no PAR meter to check the light output so I would merely be guess on correcting this £200+ spend for perhaps a one time use cant be justified to me, unless there is an easier way to check this.

@Iain, changing CO2 level is the easiest option, if I prune the bare stems what would be the suggested length to leave above the substrate to promote shoots, how long would it be before I see evidence of regrowth.

As an experiment I'll track and update the results with pictures, will be interesting to see the outcome.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

You can trim right back to substrate but i find leaving 5mm or so speeds up the shoot growth. Once trimmed you should see evidence of shoots after about 4-7 days possibly longer as the plant is weak, replanted tops will be longer as they will use energy to get some roots down.

Will be good to see the results

 

[ceg4048]

CO2/flow/distribution is at fault as mentione by Ian.

Distribution to the substrate level is the most likely culprit assuming injection rates are adequate.

Cheers,

 

[Paulo Soares]

Clive good evening
IF we allready have flow enough (plants moving and aeration) how does he fix this issue?... If he can´t increase more flow how is he going to solve this problem?
Don´t you agree with what i said about the diffuser? About The quality of co2 dissolution. Don´t you agree that this is the problem?
As the co2 is not properly being dissolved it wont´get to the lower level but instead it goes right up top the top... waste.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Paulo,
Hobbyists always assume that they are following the advice correctly. They do the wrong things, the plants fail and then they automatically blame the advice. I know without a doubt what symptoms are associated with what fault. Falling and melting leaves are only ever associated with poor CO2 uptake. The reasons are discussed here+> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-causes-leaves-to-melt-and-what-to-do-now.20421/

With that as the basis of our troubleshooting methods we must then determine WHY there is a poor CO2 uptake.

If the diffusion method is at fault then there is a likelihood that more plants in the tank would suffer CO2 efficiency. The exception of course is if all or most of the other plants are exceptional CO2 feeders and if they can make due with lower CO2 concentration levels.

Carpet plants typically grow semi-submersed or in the shallows, not in deep areas, meaning that they are sometimes exposed to air and can access CO2 directly. They are therefore very poor CO2 feeders because they have not had to develop better strategies to accumulate CO2. Therefore, in a tank, they are susceptible to CO2 deficiency more so than other plants which have a better developed CO2 mechanisms.

CO2 concentration levels are at their worst at the bottom of the tank because the gas is always trying to escape the tank. There is a pressure gradient which is lower at atmosphere than it is in the water column, so movement of the gas is constantly up and away. The concentration level can be 10X lower at the bottom, near the plant beds than at the top of the tank.

The critical problem therefore is to do a better job of distributing the gas to the lower reaches. It's not very clear how the water is being distributed.

The timing of the gas is also in question. We do not know what time the gas comes on versus when the light comes on.

I have not eliminated the dissolution method as a possible flaw. I've only surmised that distribution to the lower reaches is a higher probability than dissolution method. If the timing is correct and if the pH drop is correct then the flow rate and distribution to the substrate should be considered.

The easiest way to check the diffusing effectiveness is to port the gas directly into the filter mistake tube and to measure the pH profile. Compare it with the profile using the current configuration.

CO2 is very difficult and I don't think the right questions are being asked to the OP. These are the critical paths to investigate: dissolution, timing, flow rate + distribution method, injection rate.

Cheers,