• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

BruceF said:
“In general all morphological forms can be found in low PO4 concentrations ….” That along with neutral to acid ph and lots of light.
Click to expand...

I think the real weakness with this theory is that it doesn't explain why you get a worse algae outbreak in bright light.

For algae, as a photosynthesising organism, light equates to energy for growth.

However, I've quoted an experiment previously which found that in terms of growth, red algae grew most in lower light intensity (65 PAR vs 300 PAR).

PO4 is essential to photosynthesising plants and algae. It is used in the Calvin cycle to produce the compound ATP, which organisms use to store energy.

When heterotrophic bacteria break down organics, such as plant material, they release PO4 into the water column, which is re-absorbed by other organisms.

PO4 can frequently be a limiting nutrient. An increase in organics, may mean an increase in heterotrophic bacteria and hence an increase in released phosphates in the water column.

Removal of a PO4 limitation due to a heterotrophic bacteria outbreak may lead to algae being able to store more energy through photosynthesis, which it in turn means it may be able to release organic carbon for the benefit of the heterotrophic bacteria.

However, as your quote says, red algae can be found in PO4 limited environments.

Low pH may affect the autotrophic bacteria, leading to an increase in ammonia concentration.
 
AndyMcD said:
1. According to the Biocon Labs website autotrophic bacteria function less well at around a pH of 6.5 and stop functioning at about 6.0.

Having said that I have read elsewhere that there are a variety of species of Autotrophic bacteria, some of which may be able to cope with pH levels outside this range.

Therefore, you may see an increase in ammonia at your highest concentration of CO2, lowest pH, if the autotrophic bacteria are switching off.

Practically, limestone in an aquascape (e.g. ADA Seiryu or Ryouh) will lead to an increase in initial pH. If your aquascape would allow it, you could perhaps add some additional limestone rock to help buffer the water, perhaps preventing the pH dropping as low.
Click to expand...

This might be a good idea... Even though my water is a already pretty hard (GH 13, KH 7). Thanks for the tip!

AndyMcD said:
2. Ammonia is the main compound required by the nitrifying bacteria, as well as being a potential compound required by the BBA.

Managing the concentration of ammonia, rather than eliminating it would seem to be correct to me.

Ammonia is produced through fish waste and heterotrophic bacteria breaking down proteins and amino acids in organic carbons.

Practically, removing waste and a water change would help to reduce the source and concentration of ammonia. This will help to starve the heterotrophic bacteria of organic carbon.

Consider cleaning your filter to remove organics, to remove the heterotrophic bacteria's food source and improve the conditions for the autotrophic bacteria. The Autotrophic bacteria will be better able to compete, converting ammonia to nitrates.

Adding a liquid ammonia remover may help, but it may be a short term fix. It may not remove the source of ammonia (too many organics) and if used to excess it may limit the ammonia available to the nitrifying bacteria. Perhaps use with caution.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course my idea of using ammonia reducers would be just a temporary solution or, better, a preventive help "whenever needed". For example, whenever we mess with the substrate, we could add some of that stuff after the water change, just to reduce ammonia spikes.

AndyMcD said:
3. ADA produce Bacter 100 to help create the correct bacterial populations in the substrate.

The Biocon website suggests that you should take care in terms of the bacteria products that you can add http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

Once bacteria is in your aquarium (which you'll struggle to avoid) the population size will vary significantly with the environmental conditions. The population of the heterotrophic bacteria are able to respond much more quickly than the autotrophic bacteria to changes in the environment.

Therefore, minimising the organic carbon waste in your aquarium to constrain the population of heterotrophic bacteria enables the autotrophic bacteria to be better able to compete for surface area and oxygen.
Click to expand...

Hmm... Thank for the link, my concerns were founded then. In a ideal world, we should know what strains of bacteria are inside any bacteria additive. Unfortunately most commercial products don't even state the name of the included bacteria, making difficult to understand the possible consequences once introduced in the tank. Would be cool if we could have an additive with just autotrophic bacteria in it 🙂

Anyhow, thank you for your detail reply, appreciated!
 
I think anubias is a plant that doesn't do well without enough phosphate in the first place. Also it seems to be a plant that doesn't prefer to be in high light. So I am thinking more about what is causing the defense mechanisms within the plant to fail to prevent the algae from growing on it in the first place. That suggests to me that less light and more phosphate might have prevented this problem in the first place. Though I would be the first to admit that I am simply speculating.
 
Anubias needs higher concentrations of phosphate to grow well, as do many ferns.
 
BruceF said:
I think anubias is a plant that doesn't do well without enough phosphate in the first place. Also it seems to be a plant that doesn't prefer to be in high light. So I am thinking more about what is causing the defense mechanisms within the plant to fail to prevent the algae from growing on it in the first place. That suggests to me that less light and more phosphate might have prevented this problem in the first place. Though I would be the first to admit that I am simply speculating.
Click to expand...


Bruce, I have plenty of Po4 in my water, and my Anubias sometimes suffer of BBA no matter if they are under light or not. Actually the worse affected leaves are the ones more in shadow!

I guess, at least in my case, I need to look at the amount of Co2 I inject (a lot, maybe too much?), oxygen level and PH level, all important elements to consider for autotrophic bacteria to correctly do their job, as we have been discussing so far.
 
Oh I just meant that as a general observation. I’ve never used a wet dry filter. The point really is to keep up the water flow and prevent the media from clogging up to keep the bacteria healthy. I took apart one of my own canisters last week after a few months and there was a lot of brown gunk in there.

I think the ADA people like to pump air into their tanks at night. I assume that is to keep the o2 levels as high as possible.
 
BruceF said:
Oh I just meant that as a general observation. I’ve never used a wet dry filter. The point really is to keep up the water flow and prevent the media from clogging up to keep the bacteria healthy. I took apart one of my own canisters last week after a few months and there was a lot of brown gunk in there.

I think the ADA people like to pump air into their tanks at night. I assume that is to keep the o2 levels as high as possible.
Click to expand...

Yes, canister filters may really clog easily. Wet drys can clog too in the prefilter section, that's why I clean my pre filter every 2 weeks before water change.

ADA is right, mostly if you have a canister filter. Wet drys add a lot of oxygen by itself already.
 
As BruceF has said, if you have a canister filter, it can capture lots of organics over time and rather than being a great home for nitrifying bacteria, it can become an ideal home for the heterotrophic bacteria.

The autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria are competing for surface area and oxygen. Providing the heterotrophic have a supply of carbon, their population size can increase even if oxygen begins to run out. Although a reduction in oxygen is a major issue for the nitrifying bacteria, for the heterotrophic bacteria they're not only able to survive, but may be able to produce other compounds more readily (Industrial production of vitamin B12 discussed previously). As Yo-Han pointed out previously, your filter may start pushing out vitamin B12 and unprocessed ammonia into your aquarium.

The wet/dry filter provides a surface area and oxygen. Do you think you're providing a good home for the nitrifying bacteria? Do you think the bio filter could be full of organics? Does the pre-filter take it all out? You mentioned you were considering using ammonia reducers.

I guess the other question is sufficient flow. Is there enough movement to get the dissolved gases to where they need to be? Is there sufficient movement to prevent build up of organics in any places?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I may likely have a bacterial problem simply because of this: my tank is 6 years old, I find myself often to uproot plants and just messing up with the substrate which causes high amount of organics to be released in the water column, hence possible ammonia and B12 spikes. It is pretty typical in my tank to have a BBA outbreak right a week after I mess with the substrate in some way.

Also, very important, despite I have a wet filter, I pump a lot of Co2, and not only oxygen could become low during photoperiod, but PH is also very low (6.2). After reading this thread 3 days ago, I have opened my wet/dry pre filter section a little more to better oxygenate water and raise the PH a little bit. Just experimenting for now, but I wanna see if these strains of BBA are going to disappear in the coming weeks with these measures. I will keep you posted.

As for the ammonia reducer, I have added it as directed to the last water change (3 days ago), with the intent to help autotrophic bacteria a little bit until they have multiplied enough to work what the heterotrophic ones have produced after I have messed up with the substrate a couple of weeks ago (everything makes sense Andy!)

My tank circulation is excellent though, plants grow well, here are some pictures of it taken just now, the last picture below shows you some BBA on my Anubias:

efd65b5fca721a7bf65543758c5d69d7.jpg

b6aa4b0c602e6286617c4a16053a3fd3.jpg

0b22116143761772059d0daba19afadb.jpg
 
Fablau, your aquarium is incredible.

Sciencefiction, I think, highlighted that large colonies of bacteria live in the substrate and disturbing the substrate can lead to bacteria outbreaks. If your water becomes cloudy within several hours of disturbing the substrate, this could be a heterotrophic bacteria population increase. Releasing organics at this time may provide the food source. This may lead to an ammonia / B12 spike.

With high CO2, I think you'll oxygenate the water most through photosynthesis. I understood that wet/dry filters have a high gas exchange. If you open up the filter section, you may lose more CO2 too. The concentration of CO2 and O2 can both be high. O2 may be lowest before your lights switch on. A wet/dry filter may mean that your lowest O2 is higher than if you had a canister filter and low surface agitation.
 
In the summer time only, the sun moves around in the sky far enough that the lights hits a corner of my aquarium.

Could you be getting more light / a longer photoperiod in one corner of your aquarium?
 
So for a couple of weeks, I used less CO2 (15-25ppm) than before (30-45ppm). BBA started growing at rates never seen, especially on the wood where it would get covered, and on some slow growing plants such as Bolbitis and Anubias. So does the lowered CO2 concentration result in lowered O2 concentration, which results in BBA establishing and growing out of control on the wood and on some plants?

Another question regarding CO2 adaptation of plants: do plants adapt to certain levels of CO2? If they go from high to low, will they struggle at the lower concentration? Is this due to the increased RuBisCo enzymes and other carbon fixation pathways when grown in lower CO2 levels? But if they go from low to high, will they thrive because of the increased CO2 fixation pathways and are able to utilize CO2 more efficiently?

If it really is an O2 issue, then shouldn't we inject O2 into our tanks?
 
If you lower the co2 you lower the growth rate of the plants and thereby you lower the o2 production. Of course you also lower the nutrient requirements of the plants and often cause a bit of dieback.

Co2 acts just like any other nutrient.

Lots of people inject air into their tanks at night, Plants inject o2 into the tanks during the day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top