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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

This website deals with how ammonia is released in an aquarium. Perhaps it is the presence of the intermediate amino acids that are utilised by other organisms:

http://www.thinkport.org/ad8a172c-5a94-484d-bd73-8b0884783e9c.asset

Ammonification
This process involves the degradation of proteins from dead plant and animal tissue and the release of ammonia into the environment. The process starts with the release of proteolytic enzymes from bacteria that hydrolyze proteins of plant and animal origin into amino acids. The amino acids are subsequently deaminated accompanied by the release of ammonia.

proteolysis
Plant! Animal protein -----------------polypeptides

deamination
amino acids------------------------ ammonia (NH3)
 
This is very interesting guys... I think the main elements involved in "BBA production" are: organic matter, oxygen. In my experience, I don't think light is a factor for BBA. I have BBA on many of my Anubias leaves, no matter if they are under strong light or completely in the dark. I do notice though that BBA appear more where organic matter deposits (i.e. where fish food may deposit when I feed the fish, where mud accumulates after up-rooting plants, messing with the substrate, etc).

Also, I get BBA stronger and bushy in my Co2 tank than in my low-tech, non-co2 tank. Actually, I am not even sure that what I get in my low-tech tank is actually BBA. In my low-tech tank, I have some sort of BBA on my very old Anubia leaves. That stuff looks definitively dark, similarly to BBA, but it is "flat" and not "bushy" like the BBA I get in my Co2 tank. That's very important to consider. Why most low-tech tanks don't have BBA? I remember Tom Barr writing, somewhere, that he has never found BBA in non-Co2, low-tech tanks. I think, if that's the case, the only explanation is the correlation of Co2 with O2, or it is just Co2 that gives something more to water quality which favorites BBA... in some way.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
I get BBA in my non-CO2, low-light tanks all the time and have the Anubias, Bolbitis, and Java ferns covered in BBA to prove it. What does appear to prevent it from growing in these tanks are regular fertilizing of potassium and micros.
 
I get BBA in my non-CO2, low-light tanks all the time and have the Anubias, Bolbitis, and Java ferns covered in BBA to prove it. What does appear to prevent it from growing in these tanks are regular fertilizing of potassium and micros.

That's very interesting... Guest, does that mean that if you add more K and traces BBA goes away or get reduced? I also have seen BBA reduced if I dose more traces in my Co2 tank.
 
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That's very interesting... Guest, does that mean that if you add more K and traces BBA goes away or get reduced? I also have seen BBA reduced if I dose more traces in my Co2 tank.
Yeah, it gradually disappears. Even the BBA that grows on the walls of the tank disappear and I don't even touch it.
 
What does appear to prevent it from growing in these tanks are regular fertilizing of potassium and micros.

This also coincide with my observations respect to BBA.

I have also a comment about the light. Curiously, I have some Anubias barterii nana in my tank, and I noticed that the ones that are more exposed to light suffer slightly from BBA in the old leaves. However, I have some under less light with have no symptoms of BBA at all. Of course, algae have requirement of light as the plants have also, but I have the feeling that BBA is in fact a combination of factors, triggered by a lack of certain nutrients and an excess of light. So I am not telling anything new, but just what I observe in my tank, which it seems to me coincide with what more people are telling.
 
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I've a very low light paludarium water part which does grow BBA. I feed quite a lot because I've Sewellia in it breeding. I do dose micro's but no (extra) potassium. I've noticed that I can grow Anubias in full light in an ADA tank (which does receive daily potassium) and not in this tank. I've never mind the BBA in this tank, but I do wonder whether I can get rid of it with only adding potassium. Perhaps potassium has something to do with the vitamine B12 production...

About less light less BBA on Anubias. I think this is called a deficiency😉 Plants receiving more light need more nutrients, when they don't get them they start dying cell by cell and these cells produce organics which lead to BBA.

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Yeah, it gradually disappears. Even the BBA that grows on the walls of the tank disappear and I don't even touch it.

Wow, that's great to know. I wanna try to increase K and traces and see what happens in both my tanks. When you say "gradually disappears" does that mean even on old leaves where it was present for a long time?
 
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This also coincide with my observations respect to BBA.

I have also a comment about the light. Curiously, I have some Anubias barterii nana in my tank, and I noticed that the ones that are more exposed to light suffer slightly from BBA in the old leaves. However, I have some under less light with have no symptoms of BBA at all. Of course, algae have requirement of light as the plants have also, but I have the feeling that BBA is in fact a combination of factors, triggered by a lack of certain nutrients and an excess of light. So I am not telling anything new, but just what I observe in my tank, which it seems to me coincide with what more people are telling.

As I wrote earlier, I get BBA on Anubia leaves no matter if they are under light or in complete shadow. I don't see light that much of a factor for me, unless I have such low K levels that affect leaves under very-low-light as well (!!) but I doubt that since I am dosing with the EI. But I can definitively try to double K for a while and see what happens. That won't hurt anyway!
 
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But I can definitively try to double K for a while and see what happens. That won't hurt anyway!

Totally true. If you do not mind, it would be great if you can monitor the evolution of your test and report here. Maybe there is a potential solution there, especially if that is verified by third people. 😉
 
Wow, that's great to know. I wanna try to increase K and traces and see what happens in both my tanks. When you say "gradually disappears" does that mean even on old leaves where it was present for a long time?
BBA occurs mostly on K-deficient plants even though there are very few plants in the tank. Something about potassium deficiency results in BBA growing all over. However, the plants that have been infected will still have BBA. I can't get rid of it unless I remove the affected leaves.
 
Addition of Potassium (K+) may be linked to the ratio of ammonium (NH4+) to nitrate (NO3-) in the water.

Algae have a higher proportion of protein to carbohydrate molecules than plants (see Wikipedia entry for Carbon-to-nitrogen ratio, due to algae having no cellulose (C6H10O5) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-to-nitrogen_ratio).

For example, rhodophyta algae use phycobiliproteins as well as chlorophyll to capture light for photosynthesis. The algae can alter the mix of chlorophyll and the phycobiliproteins to take advantage of different peaks in wavelength. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phycobilisome

Plants and algae need to absorb nitrogen compounds (NH4+ or NO3-) to create amino acids and then proteins.

However, if plants used ammonium (NH4+), they use an ammonia (NH3) molecule and release a H+ ion. This acts to drop the pH. http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/ammonium-nitrate-ratio

The accumulation and release of the H+ ions also makes it more difficult for plants to absorb positive ions, such as K+, Ca2+, Mg2+. Therefore, an increase in ammonium may conicide with K+ and micro-nutrient deficiency.

However, if plants use nitrate (NO3-), this charge issue doesn't occur.

When heterotrophic bacteria break down organics, they break down proteins to amino acids and then ammonia.

In response to Sciencefiction and Yo-Han's point, I searched to see if there were reports that algae absorb amino acids. This may explain why a peak in ammonia (which may coincide with a peak in amino acids) created in the aquarium may be different to the addition of synthetically (pure) produced ammonia. However, I couldn't find evidence of algae absorbing amino acids. Breaking down amino acids may also release other nutrients which may help organisms create amino acids from ammonia.

If the concentration of ammonia increases due to an increase in heterotrophic bacteria breaking down organics, particularly if there is drop in pH, there will be an increase in ammonium ions (NH4+).

If the autotrophic (nitrifying) bacteria are not functioning, the conversion of ammonia to nitrates will reduce. This would also act to increase the ratio of ammonium to nitrate ions.

The optimum ratio of ammonium to nitrate varies between different types of plants. It may be that algae have a preference for ammonium.
 
I've noticed that I can grow Anubias in full light in an ADA tank (which does receive daily potassium) and not in this tank.

Earlier in this thread, information was presented about plants that use bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions as their carbon source, can accumulate OH- ions on the upper surface of their leaves. This effect would increase with increasing light intensity.

Positively charged K+ ions would be attracted to the negatively charged upper surface of the leaf. Images of Calcium (Ca2+) accumulated on a leaf was shown.
 
As I wrote earlier, I get BBA on Anubia leaves no matter if they are under light or in complete shadow. I don't see light that much of a factor for me.

Totally true. If you do not mind, it would be great if you can monitor the evolution of your test and report here. Maybe there is a potential solution there, especially if that is verified by third people. 😉

I will, definitively. If we can actually find a practical solution to at least control BBA, would be great!
 
The accumulation and release of the H+ ions also makes it more difficult for plants to absorb positive ions, such as K+, Ca2+, Mg2+. Therefore, an increase in ammonium may conicide with K+ and micro-nutrient deficiency.
Andy, this really might be the key! And could also explain why Co2 injected tanks are more prone to get BBA, where H+ ions are more present. Am I right?
 
Fablau and Yo-Han, I agree. More light, more CO2, faster growth, more protein production from ammonium, more H+ ions.


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Just a warning: I just had my water tested and even though I was dosing EI daily, it showed that even at these levels, I was massively overdosing micros. Copper was ridiculously high as was iron. Rates of uptake are far lower than was assumed. Someone else also had the water tested and it showed the same thing, but his water was even worse than mine at EI levels.
 
Just a warning: I just had my water tested and even though I was dosing EI daily, it showed that even at these levels, I was massively overdosing micros. Copper was ridiculously high as was iron. Rates of uptake are far lower than was assumed. Someone else also had the water tested and it showed the same thing, but his water was even worse than mine at EI levels.

What did you do then?

I assume that if a "lack of traces" is contributing to BBA, that means that they are well below toxic levels. Otherwise they are overruled.
 
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