ferts causing high nitrate!

Hi all,
could anyone tell me if my ferts are causing my nitrate readings to go through the roof!
I have just changed from TPN to fluidsensors complete because I had low nitrates in my tap water and now the readings on my API test are showing 160ppm!!!
my 240l tank has CO2 ( 4dkh in drop checker) 80w lighting and is 80% planted with mainly stem plants and a few swords.
I dose the ferts at about 7 mil daily and do a 40% water change weekly. The tank is well stocked and has only been running about 8 weeks...so I don't think I have old tank syndrome :?

any ideas guys

thanks

mark

step away from the test kit ! I'd say it will be the ferts - all in one is nitrate, phosphate and potassium (NPK) plus trace as these are all required for healthy growth. The only really effective test kit is tank health - if fish and plants are happy, don't worry about numbers! I'll try and explain a bit more when i'm not on my phone if someone cleverer doesn't come along in the meantime! Matt

hi mat,
I bought the complete fert for the added NPK but for it to show 166ppm 2 days after a 40/50% water change is a little OTT!

MARK

Ummmm...so test kits are never wrong. Is that the implication?

Cheers,

hi ceg,
I know nitrate test kits are inaccurate, but when I do a test straight after a water change it reads 10ppm!!!
surely a test would not deviate that much?
mark

Sad to say mate but surely it would. I'll be willing to bet the farm that the 10ppm value is even way off. That is why you need to stop testing, because test kits turn you into a hamster. You'll be running on that little wheel for the rest of your life.

Lets be reasonable. Suppose the 10ppm was actually a correct value after the water change.
Suppose you added X grams of KNO3 to your tank afterwards.

Nitrate is 60% by weight of KNO3. Therefore to your 240l tank you would have added 0.6X grams of NO3, or (0.6X)*1000 milligrams of NO3 to the water column.

A 240l tank contains roughly 240 kg of water.

Therefore the concentration of NO3 can only possibly be (0.6X)*1000 milligrams/240kg + 10ppm.

So, say you added a teaspoon of KNO3 which weighs about 6 grams. The final concentration would be:
10ppm+ [0.6*6*1000 / 240]ppm = 10 ppm+ 15ppm = 25ppm

Now, I have no idea how much NO3 is in your 7ml dose, but I'm pretty sure that there is no way it will contain more than an entire teaspoon of KNO3 unless when you mixed this you were the one who went completely over the top and dumped a boatload of KNO3 in a small amount of water.

This is therefore like saying you put 25 quid in your wallet this morning and then when you checked after paying for lunch you found 160 quid in the wallet. This is an impossibility (unless you have a rich benevolent uncle).

These calculations, based on scientific reality, immediately imply that your test kit is off by 640%. AND THAT IS TYPICAL OF THE MATRIX.

Testing without understanding the truth will get you into real trouble.

Cheers,

ceg4048 said:

Sad to say mate but surely it would. I'll be willing to bet the farm that the 10ppm value is even way off. That is why you need to stop testing, because test kits turn you into a hamster. You'll be running on that little wheel for the rest of your life.

Lets be reasonable. Suppose the 10ppm was actually a correct value after the water change.
Suppose you added X grams of KNO3 to your tank afterwards.

Nitrate is 60% by weight of KNO3. Therefore to your 240l tank you would have added 0.6X grams of NO3, or (0.6X)*1000 milligrams of NO3 to the water column.

A 240l tank contains roughly 240 kg of water.

Therefore the concentration of NO3 can only possibly be (0.6X)*1000 milligrams/240kg + 10ppm.

So, say you added a teaspoon of KNO3 which weighs about 6 grams. The final concentration would be:
10ppm+ [0.6*6*1000 / 240]ppm = 10 ppm+ 15ppm = 25ppm

Now, I have no idea how much NO3 is in your 7ml dose, but I'm pretty sure that there is no way it will contain more than an entire teaspoon of KNO3 unless when you mixed this you were the one who went completely over the top and dumped a boatload of KNO3 in a small amount of water.

This is therefore like saying you put 25 quid in your wallet this morning and then when you checked after paying for lunch you found 160 quid in the wallet. This is an impossibility (unless you have a rich benevolent uncle).

These calculations, based on scientific reality, immediately imply that your test kit is off by 640%. AND THAT IS TYPICAL OF THE MATRIX.

Testing without understanding the truth will get you into real trouble.

Cheers,

Click to expand...

What a great reply


My 'see through' tank challenge http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15878

ceg4048 said:

I'll be willing to bet the farm that the 10ppm value is even way off. That is why you need to stop testing, because test kits turn you into a hamster. You'll be running on that little wheel for the rest of your life.


These calculations, based on scientific reality, immediately imply that your test kit is off by 640%. AND THAT IS TYPICAL OF THE MATRIX.

Click to expand...

Always a quality read.

I came to planted tanks after keeping non-planted, and it took me a while to process the whole nitrate thing. In the non-planted world nitrates are viewed as the devil - i think because nitrates in these circumstances arise from fish waste in the tank. Of course this means that not only are nitrates high, but there are lots of other nasties in the tank (nitrite, ammonia etc) and sometimes erroneous links have been made by people linkig high nitrates to fish death, whereas in reality if nitrate builds up in a non-planted tank it's a sign of poor maintenance, therefore another problem is likely to be the cause but nitrtae is used as the "whipping boy" . Of course, we are adding "pure" nitrate to our tanks without any of the associated nasties, and for all the people on here using MASSIVE nitrate loads (including me) no causative link between high nitrates and livestock death has been established.
ceg4048 highlights why tank health is the most accurate "test kit" we can ever use - fish and platn health is pretty definitive as a measure (as well as our goal) and it is these aims we should be chasing rather than pursuing arbitrary numbers on a test kit.
I hope this clarifies and sets your mind at rest!
Matt

thanks guys....and sir ceg!
I know after reading plenty of info about test kits (nitrate) that they are VERY inaccurate ( I have tested .5ppm and done another straight after and it as been 40ppm!) I was just concerned that by adding more from ferts it would be detrimental to my live stock as I have sensitive appisto.
one thing I would like to know and that is, if i ran out of gas and I kept adding no3 would my plants still be able to assimilate it?

thanks for the replies guys

mark

Hi
What is 160ppm nitrate equated to....... who knows? Do the plants or fish?
Ive supposed to have nitrate between 20ppm/50ppm in my municipal tap water?
It wasn't till I started dosing Kno3 and other ferts that my plants became healthy.
That's with ultra low lighting 4 to 5 hours a day using T8s....no Co2 .....now the question is can your test be contaminated by other means in the water column?
I did nitrate tests also with test kits and they were way over 250ppm what ever that means?
As long as you keep a good clean tank i wouldn't worry about nitrate to much.
Ditch the kits and you will think what was all that fuss about....in a few months time.
Regards
hoggie

Hi Mark.
You know, really the thing about NO3 test kits is not just that they are inaccurate. I wouldn't mind that at all, for example, if I knew that a certain kit was always 640% wrong. If that were the case i would simply have to divide my test results by 6.4, I could live with that, no worries. The real problem is that the kit readings are inconsistent. That means that on one day, you'll measure the NO3 concentration and it will be bang on, absolutely accurate. The next day (or next minute) the results will be completely off the charts. The problem is that you can never know on which of those days or minutes you are reading the results. This renders them completely useless. And that ordinarily rational people go out and spend money for these pieces of garbage, and then base their decisions on the test results, especially when one knows the results are bogus, sends me into a tailspin. This is the equivalent of having the Prime Minister and his Cabinet sitting down together to determine national policy using a Ouija board. It's inconceivable.

cichlidlover said:

I was just concerned that by adding more from ferts it would be detrimental to my live stock as I have sensitive appisto.

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Many chichlid keepers feel this way. I'm pretty sure that if you check any chichlid forum right now you'll find a hundred or more threads on the evil of Nitrate and how their poor sensitive fish must be suffering. But the mechanism of toxicity is very much misunderstood. As Matt says, Nitrate is only the smoking gun of a detoxification process. Have a read of the last page of the following thread, which is focused on CO2 issues but includes some data on Nitrogen toxicity.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12656&p=134896#p134896

cichlidlover said:

if i ran out of gas and I kept adding no3 would my plants still be able to assimilate it?

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If you ran out of CO2 then the entire apparatus of Carbon and NPK assimilation, and subsequently plant health would take a massive nose dive. There's certainly no point dosing eutrophic nutrient levels when the CO2 peters out, that's for sure. But if this happens then there are a lot more things to worry about than Nitrate buildup. How about the fact that the Oxygen production in the tank would also take a massive nose dive. How about the fact that bacteriological nitrification and detoxification of organic waste would also take a massive nose dive because the bacteria depend on the Oxygen and carbohydrate output of the plants. How much more sensitive would your chichlids be to these factors?

If you run out of gas, you'd be best served by turning off the lights, reducing the dosing and to start implementing frequent massive water changes and maybe even adding aeration if you have sensitive fish. The goal would be to try and improve Oxygen levels and to keep the tank clean. The Nitrate issue, even at this point is at the tail end of the equation.

Cheers,

Cool thread, I ditched test kits a while ago. The results were making no sense to me.

OK, I genuinely do sympathise with the consensus on this forum about test kits. I have learnt through bitter experience that they are unreliable. However, I find myself in a very similar position as the OP as I'm using exactly the same ferts and since I've been using them my nitrate test readings have gone from 5ppm to 80ppm. My concern is with the health of my shrimp and boraras.

Now those readings may be random error. They might not. My questions are

- Are nitrate kits (mine is a salifert) so unreliable as to be useless?
- If so how do I judge the effect of nitrate (through ferts or through the combo of ferts and overstocking in my case) on my livestock? What does a nitrate stressed shrimp/fish look like? Most shrimp breeding forums suggest nitrates above 5ppm are not good for breeding.
- What are people's experiences of using an EI dosing method in a shrimp breeding tank? Is this a foolish combo? Should I revert to my ADA ferts (step 2 and k)?

Hi hotweldfire

hotweldfire said:

Are nitrate kits (mine is a salifert) so unreliable as to be useless?

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That just about sums them up.

hotweldfire said:

If so how do I judge the effect of nitrate (through ferts or through the combo of ferts and overstocking in my case) on my livestock?

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Their health is the best indicator.

hotweldfire said:

What does a nitrate stressed shrimp/fish look like?

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Never seen one.

hotweldfire said:

What are people's experiences of using an EI dosing method in a shrimp breeding tank? Is this a foolish combo?

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I ran an experiment for about 6 months dosing double EI values with crazy CO2 levels. All fish and shrimp were fine. Shrimp carried on breeding. Although it has to be said they were only cherries and them things breed if you just add water . No doubt there are other shrimp that may be sensitive to this stuff for breeding purposes, but I don't keep the expensive ones .

Exactly Chris, this is what I mean by testing yourself to determine the validity of industry claims for yourself. Anybody can make any claim. If it sounds reasonable enough then many just accept it as fact without ever testing it for themselves.

hotweldfire said:

Are nitrate kits (mine is a salifert) so unreliable as to be useless?

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Yes, but chin up, here you go. If you want something useful get a test kit like this=> DR 2800 Portable Spectrophotometer (Batteries @ £180+Vat, Not Included mate) Otherwise, forget about it.

These supposed Nitrate limits of 5ppm? Do you know where they come from? I can guarantee you that no one set up a series of tanks with shrimp, dividing them by various carefully controlled NO3 concentration and studied the results. That's not where that information comes from.

A lot of the data comes from widely available reports submitted by WHO (World Health Organization), USA EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) or Canadian CME (Council of Ministers of the Environment) data of testing done on North American streams, rivers and lakes. The values provided are all valid for fish native to these environments such as Salmon, Trout, Crayfish, Frogs - even on their food sources such as Caddisflies and Amphipods. So if you are keeping these species then yes, these are the limits that apply. But these numbers do not translate to tropical species. You cannot just lift a number from tests done in the St. Lawrence River and apply it to fish in the Orinoco River. Toxicity of any chemical agent is always species dependent.

hotweldfire said:

how do I judge the effect of nitrate (through ferts or through the combo of ferts and overstocking in my case) on my livestock?

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Well, I mean, it's exactly as Chris says. How would you judge the effects of anything that you put in the tank or remove from the tank. As far as I can tell by your testimonial, you started adding ferts and have not detected any change in the behaviour, feeding habits, or colouration of the fish or shrimp. The only thing you mentioned is some test kit results which you knew, by your own admission, were going to be dodgy even before you tested. I don't see what more you need to do. You keep your tank and filter clean via regular maintenance, water changes and so forth, and the ferts that you add help the plants to produce an better environment in the tank than can be achieved without plants, so what more could you possibly ask for?

hotweldfire said:

What does a nitrate stressed shrimp/fish look like?

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I mentioned this in the thread I linked to in my previous post. According to the studies, the main toxic action of nitrate on aquatic animals is the conversion of oxygen-carrying pigments (hemoglobin, hemocyanin) to forms that are incapable of carrying oxygen (methemoglobin, methemocyanin). So what does this mean? It means that the animal suffocates, so it should look very similar to mild CO2 toxicity. Are you seeing anything in the tank like this that is not directly attributable to actual CO2 poisoning??

hotweldfire said:

What are people's experiences of using an EI dosing method in a shrimp breeding tank? Is this a foolish combo? Should I revert to my ADA ferts (step 2 and k)?

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CO2 and Excel kills a heck of a lot more shrimp than Nitrate could ever dream of. Ferts are not really an issue for shrimp. There is too much evidence to the contrary.

Cheers,

Ta both. Have some high grade cherries including a few taiwan painted fire reds which can be a bit sensitive. Also some golden bees that are fairly high grade. Have not seen anything resembling symptoms of CO2 poisoning though. You're probably right, it's just breeders trying to play safe.

i love this thread,i've never used a test kit and just relied on how my fish look,if they look healthy then all is well if not then water changes are the way forward.i have'nt gone into ferts etc because i've never gone deep into keeping plants but i guess the same applies.

When I started using ferts I too experienced the very high nitrate readings and at first panicked but nothing bad has happened. All the fish are swimming and feeding the same as they were prior to the introduction of ferts