My second attempt

[FerdinandPorsche]

Hi guys. First time writing a journal here, this is my second attempt on a planted aquarium. Only got to know this remarkable hobby 2 years back, but only managed to start the tank 1 year after reading and preparation. Yet, I still feel the 1 year of reading proves lacking hence the need to read more. I will try to update as often as possible.



The tank data as follows:
2ft ADA 60P
UP-Aqua pro-led-z-20
Eheim 2217 using 12/16mm CADE lily pipes
Intense inline diffuser, bubble counter, check valve and solenoid regulator (3bps)
Hailea HS-28A (~25c)
ADA amazonia soil, ADA 5 elements (re-use from 1st tank)

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

As of today, I had a jumper in my tank from the rummy nose family of 4, now 3.

My plants overall are turning yellow, a sign of iron or potassium deficiency I suspect. I was using the EI regime and increased my potassium dosage from 10ml to 30ml in a test but nothing improved. I thought using ADA Brighty K might solve the problem (someone ended up suggesting BW Essence K as it is cheaper), hence I changed the regime now to 3 push of BW Essence K every 2 alternate day ; and Step 1 ADA every alternate day since the recent Sunday.

I also got the advise to insert ADA multi bottom into the substrate to enrich the soil nutrients which could be lacking. However, this should not be the case for mosses. Hence I came the suspect potassium in the water column is insufficient.

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

Hi all, I have hydrocotyle that is deteriorating by day. As seen below, a picture of before and after in a difference of a day. What nutrient am I lacking?

Edit: the said leaf is dead the following day.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My plants overall are turning yellow, a sign of iron or potassium deficiency I suspect

I have hydrocotyle that is deteriorating by day. As seen below, a picture of before and after in a difference of a day. What nutrient am I lacking?

Nitrogen.

cheers Darrel

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

Hi all, Nitrogen.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel. I tried dosing lots of NPK before but it did not seem to work. Any other reasons?

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

I have a TDS meter, it says 270. Is this in TDS or in PPM? Somehow I am confused with these two measurements.

A TDS meter typically displays the TDS in parts per million (ppm). For example, a TDS reading of 1 ppm would indicate there is 1 milligram of dissolved solids in each kilogram of water

This is mentioned in wikipedia. So does this mean I have a ppm of 270, which is more than the said >30ppm in the chart above. Doesn't it show that I have potassium deficiency as I have holes in my hydrocotyle.

There are always going to be issues with CO2 and aquarist assumptions(this assumes that IF is true.....many times hobbyist think it is....when it is not), no chart is going to rectify that. Help one on one, discussions etc.....it's a more complex problem than a chart can help in many cases........

Few charts even address CO2, so this gets good points for that.

Light and CO2 need treated with far more importance than nutrients.
Carts can be used for nutrients, but few know what each deficiency and even fewer have any clue what excess looks like in some 300-400 different submersed plant species.

Most of the so called deficiencies are CO2 related, sometimes not enough nutrients, but adding more of the fert is very easy to do and rule that out, CO2 is more tricky.
I have still yet to see any confirmed excess fert issues after 30+ years in the hobby as far as nutrients.

Regards,
Tom Barr

As mentioned by Tom on the most common problem, I will try to increase my co2 from 3bps to 4bps to test things out.

However, delivery of co2 across the tank is also important. I am using an inline diffuser, which I believe should be better than a standard diffuser that is easily released into the surface. It should also be following the waters flow which should be great. Any advise on this?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'll ignore carbon for the moment, but the reason it is nitrogen deficiency is that there are two (of the the three) macro-nutrients that plants require in large amounts.

They are nitrogen(N), and potassium (K). Plants need about x10 as much of these as they do the third macro nutrient phosphorus (P), and all the micro-nutrients (magnesium (Mg), iron (Fe) etc.), although required, are needed in even smaller amount.

Chlorophyll is a chlorin pigment, that has a central magnesium atom surrounded by nitrogen atoms. When you don't have sufficient nitrogen

your plant can't produce chlorophyll and the leaves yellow. This yellowing also happens when the plant is short of potassium, but you've added more potassium and nothing happened. If you are short of magnesium, you get yellowing, but this is less likely and also tend to give interveinal chlorosis.

Have a look at the "Duckweed index", it is a low tech. method where you use the health and colour of a floating plant (this removes CO2 from the equation) as an index of when to add nutrients <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <Plants with Deficiency of something | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

I have a TDS meter, it says 270. Is this in TDS or in PPM? Somehow I am confused with these two measurements

Your TDS meter actually measures electrical conductivity (in microS) and then use a conversion factor (it should say on the meter, but it will be between 0.55 - 0.64). You divide conductivity in microS by the conversion factor to give ppm TDS. So 100 microS. approximates to about 60 ppm TDS.

This is mentioned in wikipedia. So does this mean I have a ppm of 270, which is more than the said >30ppm in the chart above.

No, it has nothing to do with the amount of dissolved CO2. TDS is "Total Dissolved Solids", but what you've actually measured with your meter is the total amount of dissolved salts as ions. Pure H2O is an electrical insulator, and there is a linear relationship between the amount of ions in the water and the conductivity. Have a look here: <TDS of London Tap Water | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

Your TDS value of 270ppm is actually quite low, meaning that you don't have many salts of any description in the tank water. As an example of what I mean sea water would be about 35,000 ppm TDS.

Try adding some nitrogen, I would expect a fairly rapid greening.

cheers Darrel

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

Darrel, thank your for the remarkable explanation.

This yellowing also happens when the plant is short of potassium, but you've added more potassium and nothing happened

I have the following regime:

P1
a) KNO3 = gives K and N
b) KH2PO4 = gives K and P
c) High End (h.e) for Macro Nutrients (P1) will gives EXTRA K (POTASSIUM)

P2
Plantex CSM + B

P3
Fe 13% EDTA + Mn 13% EDTA

When I mentioned I dosed more potassium, I am also dosing more on nitrogen.

But now I have switched to BorneoWild Essence K to test, as the description mentioned also the following:

BORNEOWILD ESSENCE K is a concentrated source of potassium and trace elements. It encourages absorption of Nitrogen in plants during photosynthesis thus allowing for healthier and accelerated growth. Prevents yellowing leaves and leggy bottom growth.

I am dosing BW Essence K on 3 pushes, do you recommend me dosing more?

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

No, it has nothing to do with the amount of dissolved CO2. TDS is "Total Dissolved Solids", but what you've actually measured with your meter is the total amount of dissolved salts as ions.

From my understanding of what you have mentioned, the TDS meter is not to measure the amount of co2 ppm.

Your TDS value of 270ppm is actually quite low, meaning that you don't have many salts of any description in the tank water. As an example of what I mean sea water would be about 35,000 ppm TDS.

With that being said, how shrimps like CRS live in very low TDS and we maintain the tank on a low TDS and manage the plants healthily?

I appreciate everyone's advise.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

When I mentioned I dosed more potassium, I am also dosing more on nitrogen.

It is really going to depend on how much you dose, KNO3 is really a potassium source that supplies some nitrogen as well.

You need to look at the percentage of each element KNO3 has an RMM of 101 (K=39, N=14, O=16 (3*16=48)). I'll call that 100, so KNO3 is 39%K, 14% N, (and 62% NO3).

I have switched to BorneoWild Essence K to test, as the description mentioned also the following

Personally I wouldn't use any of the mixes from manufacturers, you're paying a mark up of literally thousands of percent of the cost of the chemicals. I'd buy an "all in one mix" from one of our sponsors, like <Home page>. If you want to buy the salts individually and make up your own mixes, you can use the calculator at the excellent "James' Planted Tank" <James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator>.

With that being said, how shrimps like CRS live in very low TDS and we maintain the tank on a low TDS and manage the plants healthily?

The low TDS for CRS is a lot to do with having water with low carbonate hardness.You can have very hard water with very few nutrients. As an example our tap water is about 17dKH and 400ppm TDS, but all this is dissolved calcium carbonate, and it has virtually no other ions (NO3- less than 5ppm etc).

You can keep a lot of plants growing slowly in very nutrient poor water, all my tanks are low tech., soft water and run at about 100ppm TDS, (and often ~60ppm TDS). I very occasionally feed them using the "Duckweed Index", but they often go for 6 months or more without any fertiliser addition. Have a look a this thread <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

Hi all, It is really going to depend on how much you dose, KNO3 is really a potassium source that supplies some nitrogen as well.

You need to look at the percentage of each element KNO3 has an RMM of 101 (K=39, N=14, O=16 (3*16=48)). I'll call that 100, so KNO3 is 39%K, 14% N, (and 62% NO3).
Personally I wouldn't use any of the mixes from manufacturers, you're paying a mark up of literally thousands of percent of the cost of the chemicals. I'd buy an "all in one mix" from one of our sponsors, like <Home page>. If you want to buy the salts individually and make up your own mixes, you can use the calculator at the excellent "James' Planted Tank" <James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator>. The low TDS for CRS is a lot to do with having water with low carbonate hardness.You can have very hard water with very few nutrients. As an example our tap water is about 17dKH and 400ppm TDS, but all this is dissolved calcium carbonate, and it has virtually no other ions (NO3- less than 5ppm etc).

You can keep a lot of plants growing slowly in very nutrient poor water, all my tanks are low tech., soft water and run at about 100ppm TDS, (and often ~60ppm TDS). I very occasionally feed them using the "Duckweed Index", but they often go for 6 months or more without any fertiliser addition. Have a look a this thread <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel

I am understanding TDS more. Fundamentally, TDS is nothing more than measurement of the ions reaction in the water. However, high TDS may or may not be contributed due to high dosage of fertilizers. Hence, the reason why many people disregard TDS as a variable.

I am not from UK, but I have joined due to the activeness of the forum. Hence I need other ways to source for local fertilizers. The one I searched before was aquariumfertilizer.com. But I will see how I can get around preparing EI myself. For the time being I will make use of my available manufactured mix. As I have no control of the NPK, I have to increase them together.

 

[parotet]

I am from Spain and I bought ferts to one of the UKAP sponsors... if you buy enough quantity, better prices than in most places in Spain

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Fundamentally, TDS is nothing more than measurement of the ions reaction in the water. However, high TDS may or may not be contributed due to high dosage of fertilizers. Hence, the reason why many people disregard TDS as a variable.

Yes that is right, exactly that.

The only advantage that TDS (really electrical conductivity) has is that it is easy to measure.

All the other parameters we might be more interested in are a lot more difficult to quantify.

Some like pH are useful in hard alkaline or very acid water, but not so useful in very soft water or around pH7.

Others are more problematic, like NO3-, and dissolved gases (CO2, O2, NH3) are all almost impossible to measure outside of a proper laboratory.

As I have no control of the NPK, I have to increase them together.

This is a problem with nitrogen, there are more nitrogen rich compounds that are used in horticulture, like urea (CO(NH2)2), ammonium sulphate ((NH4)2SO4) and ammonium nitrate (NH3NO3), but they all have the disadvantage of adding ammonia (NH3). Because I keep very "jungly" tanks I have used just an off the shelf soluble fertilizer, but this does carry risks. There is more discussion here: <Off The Shelf Ferts - non aquatic | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

I am from Spain and I bought ferts to one of the UKAP sponsors... if you buy enough quantity, better prices than in most places in Spain

Thanks mate I'll message them and see what's next.

One question though, do you all follow the standard micro and macro mixture (2 bottles)? Or do you mix each nutrient by its own water bottle (4 bottles)? Like my situation as Darrel mentioned needs more nitrate, if I follow the standard guide, I would be dosing KNO3 + KH2PO4 when I only need NO3.

1 x bottle Potassium Nitrate
1 x bottle Potassium Phosphate
1 x bottle Magnesium Sulphate
1 x bottle Chelated Trace Elements


Another question I have been wondering, why must there be potassium nitrate and not nitrate alone?

 

[aliclarke86]

Two bottles. NPK in one and trace in the other

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[FerdinandPorsche]

My tank running at 3bps with Intense inline diffuser 12/16mm. Please advise whether the output bubbles are normally this size or smaller.

 

[aliclarke86]

Look large to me mate. Only time I've used an inline it has made the whole tank look murky with really small bubbles

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[FerdinandPorsche]

Look large to me mate. Only time I've used an inline it has made the whole tank look murky with really small bubbles

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Yea, I do think they are huge. As the ones I seen are misty white in the lfs. I'll try to get some bleach to see if it is clogged. It takes 3 hours + to get the co2 checker yellow.

 

[FerdinandPorsche]

One of the Anubias I am monitoring showed slight improvement from yellow to very little green. The same Anubias are also having staghorn algae. Based on my readings, staghorn usually appear in low CO2 tanks. However, I am blasting my tank with lots of CO2. Any reason being? My CO2 is diffused inline with my lily pipe on the left, but this staghorn is growing on the right side of my tank. Not only the Anubias are affected, some carpet plants too.

Cherry shrimps added to the tank! Beautiful tiny creature pleasant to the eyes. And a tiny hydrocotyle surviving from the lack of light in a cave .

 

[aliclarke86]

How often do you clean your filter?
Also it looks like BBA to me
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