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What exactly causes BBA?

sciencefiction said:
Can you elaborate more on the problematic BBA covered areas? Is it all over the tank or just certain places? Is it happening on all species of plants or some are more succeptible?

What sort of fish do you have, what is the feeding schedule? What is your water change schedule although to be honest in a lightly stocked tank with or without water changes, with or without cleaning filters, etc... I haven't been able to cause BBA and I've tried :) although unintentionally...
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I get BBA only on slow growing plants like Anubias, Java Moss and Micro Swords. Also, on the outlet tubing as well as on driftwood. One thing in common: BBA appears only where the flow is strongest.

My livestock consists of tetra neon, rummy nose, bristle nose plecos, black mollies, and a lot of shrimp (Amano and Red Cherry). I feed them daily with flakes and micro pellets. Just once a day.

I am now testing by reducing micros a little bit, because I have noticed that some plants got worse lately and I might have given them too much of that. Maybe I have caused a toxicity of some sort? I will found out in 1-2 weeks... Hard to know though.
 
If you caused a toxicity with certain micro elements then I would think it will look like a deficiency on more plants than just the slow growers. Java moss collects detritus, anubias and slow groing swords may have leaves that are too old and damaged leaking organics...........
Have you tried just doing lots of water changes one after the other to flush the current water and replace with new? That is to rule out any nutrient and organic build up. And then start dosing from scratch.

I think it's no doubt that BBA loves the flow. Mine grew where a strong powerhead was blowing. All plants in line with the flow were affected. I mostly thought it's not just because of the flow but because the plants were getting physical damage and the BBA is quite adapted to high flow unlike the plants. But I had that powerhead blowing like that for a year prior to getting BBA. The BBA appeared for some other reasons. I also have a filter in another non-BBA tank which is blowing right at one of my swords quite badly, causing it to bend. The flow does damage the leaves all the time, literally tearing it apart but there's no BBA in the tank anywhere to be seen. I have tons of anubias in there.
 
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You are probably right about the toxicity, but here is what plants show me: as I said, slow growers such as Anubias, Microswords and Java Moss get BBA. But that's not all. Java Moss is almost stuck, I have no real growth. I have Higrophilas Polysperma and Sunset, and whereas the Polysperma grows great, the Sunset is a little bit stunted. I also have Alternanthera Reiniki, and this is the key of my "toxicity" hypothesis: this plant used to grow great when I had a much leaner fertilization regime 2 years ago, and much less Co2. Then I moved into EI, increased Co2 and got stuck for a long time (for more than one year). Then I tried to increase micro, and it got back into pretty good shape, therefore I thought "must have been a lack of micros." Then, a month ago, the same AR slowed down growing, mostly at the tips. Rotalas also stopped growing a little bit at the tip, and some little algae (BBA) begun to appear on some Rotalas too, on the ones in front of the flow outlet. Some BBA on Valisnerias also, as well as on some big Sword leaves (the oldest ones).

I compared the look of my AR and Rotala tips with some pictures online showing plant toxicity, and they were very close. All other plants I have (Miriophillum, Ambulia, Cabomba Furcata, Star Grass) look great and grow great. No algae at all. Then I decided to rethink my fert schedule 2 weeks ago, and now I give less of everything, macros and micros. co2 is still the same. I have also reduced flow, changing pump from a 12x turnover pump to a 8x turnover. When I made the change, I have changed water a big deal, in order to be sure to reset nutrients in the water column to virtually zero. Now I'll keep my usual schedule of WC every 2 weeks.

I think that there might be some truth in the fact that if you apply traditional EI dosing, you should have WC every week, otherwise you risk too much build-up which, possibly, could halt plant growth. In my case, I can't keep up with WC every week, then I am gonna try a leaner version of EI (consider also my light, which is a medium-low light, 50 PAR at the substrate).

Do you think there is some truth in what I have just stated above?
 
fablau said:
Do you think there is some truth in what I have just stated above?
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Possibly yes. When one does EI dosing and max CO2, the plants are pushed to grow to the limit, and thus too producing organics. So it's not just that nutrients can build up but organics can too without the large weekly water changes. If you are keeping it at slower growth via leaner dosing with less water changes, you may strike a sufficient balance that suits your time and needs.
Toxicity is probably not very common but in a 6 year old tank who knows, that's years and years of dosing.

When making changes, try doing one at a time. Take pictures of the affected plants before and after and look how the new growth is going or whether it's going at all. If no results, then it's possibly not that and move on to the next solution you feel feasible to try. It's the best way to figure out what's going on as one gets confused if they do tons of things at a time and forget what the issue was originally.
 
sciencefiction said:
When one does EI dosing and max CO2, the plants are pushed to grow to the limit, and thus too producing organics. So it's not just that nutrients can build up but organics can too without the large weekly water changes.
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Sorry to be pedantic, but what do we mean when we say "organics"?
 
Sacha said:
Sorry to be pedantic, but what do we mean when we say "organics"?
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I suppose you can google for a proper definition :)


Organic matter (or organic material, natural organic matter, NOM) is matter composed of organic compounds that has come from the remains of organisms such as plants and animals and their waste products in the environment.[1] Organic molecules can also be made by chemical reactions that don't involve life.[2] Basic structures are created from cellulose, tannin, cutin, and lignin, along with other various proteins, lipids, and carbohydrates.

An organic compound is any member of a large class of gaseous, liquid, or solid chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon.
 
fablau said:
What else? As I said, I have tried everything (see above...)
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Well, according to the scientific info I posted earlier, BBA likes high flow, high oxygen, and is almost non existent in places with high organics and high inorganic nutrient content. It predominantly uses free CO2 as a carbon source! Interesting!......Where do we start from there?

sciencefiction said:
Freshwater rhodophytes occur in a broad range of nutrient values, but they are more typically found in low to moderate regimes(e.g., PO4*3- below detection to 100mg/l-1)
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Do any of these scientific conclusions make sense to your tank in reality or does it sound like scientific gibberish?

Or to anyone else in here?
 
What about light hittting the tank when co2 is off? from the windows. When I get algae its due to this. Are you guys turning co2 on and off? or is it on all the time?
 
sciencefiction said:
Well, according to the scientific info I posted earlier, BBA likes high flow, high oxygen, and is almost non existent in places with high organics and high inorganic nutrient content. It predominantly uses free CO2 as a carbon source! Interesting!......Where do we start from there?
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This sounds exactly the opposite I have read and tried: increased the flow to improve nutrient transport, increase oxygen via surface agitation or other means.... And isn't "high organics" one of the possible causes of BBA?? Confused here :(


sciencefiction said:
Do any of these scientific conclusions make sense to your tank in reality or does it sound like scientific gibberish?

No really, not to me... Where did you find this info?

Or to anyone else in here?
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Jose said:
What about light hittting the tank when co2 is off? from the windows. When I get algae its due to this. Are you guys turning co2 on and off? or is it on all the time?
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I have no direct light to my tank, just indirect in the morning and not much.

Co2 is on only during photoperiod (4 hours before until 1 hour before end).
 
fablau said:
This sounds exactly the opposite I have read and tried: increased the flow to improve nutrient transport, increase oxygen via surface agitation or other means.... And isn't "high organics" one of the possible causes of BBA?? Confused here
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Yes, I know.I thought that myself, but maybe not. It's confusing. We probably need to know exactly what species of red algae is the BBA that we have in our tanks. Maybe someone here knows? Or do we have different species in different tanks... That article was summarising them all in one but generally it does look that the environment we provide in our tanks is possibly very friendly to BBA for one or another reason.
And yes, it says red algae for the most part hates high organic and high inorganic nutrients. But then what does it feed on exactly?
 
Thanks for the article, the fact is that actually I get more BBA where my flow is strongest... So that's true. It is also true that since I have added aeration at night, it got worse... So, after thinking, I have decided to make a test and removing aeration at night. I will post my results in a few days. Thanks!
 
fablau said:
Thanks for the article, the fact is that actually I get more BBA where my flow is strongest...
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Darrel has already pointed out the possible reason for this. Maybe algae eaters cannot get to the high flow area.

fablau said:
It is also true that since I have added aeration at night, it got worse...
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Of course you can run your test but high oxygen at night does not promote bba.
One possibility is: If aeration is on at night then youre off gassing all co2 that was in the tank from the photoperiod. If light (even indirect) hits the tank during this "no CO2" period then youll get algae IME. Every time light hits the tank co2 must be constant. This is a big problem for me. Big aquascapers also promote closing the windows when co2 is off.
Another possibility is that with oxygenation you are driving off co2 and the levels you get at the start of the photoperiod are lower compared to no oxygenation .
 
In response to Jose:

1) in my opinion, algae eaters are nothing to do with BBA in high flow areas. The only algae eaters that eat BBA are Siamese algae eaters. Ottos etc don't touch it.

2) too much light? I never, ever had BBA in the years when I had no Co2 and kept my lights on for 12 hours a day. Care to explain why?
 
Sacha said:
1) in my opinion, algae eaters are nothing to do with BBA in high flow areas. The only algae eaters that eat BBA are Siamese algae eaters. Ottos etc don't touch it.
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What about snails, Amanos etc? Even microscopic algae eaters?
Maybe in his case its something else, but this is a possibility.

Sacha said:
2) too much light? I never, ever had BBA in the years when I had no Co2 and kept my lights on for 12 hours a day. Care to explain why?
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I never had algae in my low tech tanks either. Because co2 stays low and constant (please notice this isnt the only factor). By the way I never said too much light. I said different co2 levels when light hits the tank.
 
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Well, that book does say BBA likes CO2 and can't feed on other source of carbon. But I am reluctant to believe the theory about changing co2 levels.
Someone around here still repeats large water changes in low tech tanks cause BBA. Now I've tested that theory for years in my tanks. Water comes out of the tap nearly 1point lower in Ph before the CO2 outgasses. My plants pearl after a water change, my tanks get micro bubbled. This has never triggered or caused BBA. I think that changing CO2 levels theory is a lot of.....you know what. Are the plants weakened because they need to adapt and re-adapt to changing CO2 levels....I don't know....maybe the fluctuations in a CO2 injected tank are way more often, it's every day and night from what I can see. But isn't it the same in nature?

As for oxygen, in my opinion the more, the better, especially in an algae ridden tank even with BBA. Oxygen on its own is not a trigger for anything at all, can't be. It's important for a healthy tank.

I am more inclined to believe about competition on microscopic level. The book did mention BBA has to compete with other algae like brown diatoms and such and other rhodophyta species too until one prevails. Red ramshorn snails and true Siamese algae eaters do eat BBA.
I've seen it in another person's tank. The Siamese algae eaters put an end to the growing BBA quite fast.

The same theory applies to pathogenic organisms in tanks. They are kept under control by other microbes. When you disturb the balance one way or another, the pathogens take over and affect the fish.

I don't know about your experience, but I've noticed BBA and GSA don't go hand in hand. It's either one or the other. Brown diatoms are normally the only type of algae while they explode. Then a green dust algae appears. Then it subsides on its own and the tank clears up eventually itself. This has happened to me 3 times.
I've never had other algae besides BGA in very small amounts which lives in conjunction with BBA. So that's why I think the BBA can use some sort of organic nutrients, same as BGA fixing its own nitrogen, during which time the plants starve from the lack of something and get "infected" with BBA.

Also, even though that book says BBA doesn't live in places with high organics and high inorganic nutrients, that doesn't necessarily say it's inhibited when those levels are high. Maybe BBA has the ability to feed out of the environment on something else. Meaning that BBA may prefer waters low on other nutrients because it doesn't have to compete with other plants and organisms that like high nutrient content, and has a mechanism to feed itself on scarce sources of nutrients. What exactly does it consume to survive, I can't find yet from scientific info but maybe we will one day.

However, what the book does say is that BBA is inhibited in lower CO2 levels, hence low techs are not so prone to BBA.
 
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