'The Full Monty' Has Left The Building last photos

[alto]

I don't usually run charcoal but it's very useful for clearing suspected toxins & removing not just the intentionally dosed medication compounds but also the by-products that may be generated in aquaria re heat, light, various chemical, even bacterial action

That instructions comment is one of those part truths of marketing

 

[LondonDragon]

don't dose the No Planaria Product if you have got high Co2 levels or if you are using EI Dosing regimes, all of which I have been doing.

I used in the past on my high tech with very high CO2 and IE dosing without any issues, I do buy liquid panacur though, have never used products such as no planaria, not sure what is in those. Panacur kills all planaria in 24 hours and would recommend it as a de-wormer for the tank, first time I went into the vet and asked for it for my fish tank, the vet looked at me as if I was crazy! lol

 

[REDSTEVEO]

I used in the past on my high tech with very high CO2 and IE dosing without any issues, I do buy liquid panacur though, have never used products such as no planaria, not sure what is in those. Panacur kills all planaria in 24 hours and would recommend it as a de-wormer for the tank, first time I went into the vet and asked for it for my fish tank, the vet looked at me as if I was crazy! lol

Hi London Dragon,
Based on what I have learned from the research I have done I would be extremely reluctant to use the No Planaria product again, or at the very least would under dose and oxygenate the tank as much as I could during the process. When I was in Germany I asked a vet once to provide me with a product called Flubenol which the German Discus keeping fraternity swore by as a cure all for everything. I got the same look as you probably did, but the vet prescribed the Flubenol for me.

I would be interested to hear more about the dosing regime for Panacur, how much per litre over how many days etc. Also what did the vet charge you for the Panacur in liquid form, did it have to be mixed to a specific strength etc.

Interestingly enough I have had no response whatsoever from the makers of No Planaria, I have emailed them twice at the email address provided on their website, www.genchem.com.tw/ I even emailed them before I used the product to ask for advice on water changes post treatment and still no response. This just about sums up the standard of their after care and customer service.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[LondonDragon]

I would be interested to hear more about the dosing regime for Panacur, how much per litre over how many days etc. Also what did the vet charge you for the Panacur in liquid form, did it have to be mixed to a specific strength etc.

Hi Steve, you can buy panacur in liquid form from Amazon, no need to visit the vet any longer.

The recommended dosage when I first used it 5-6 years ago was 0.1ml per 10l, but I have dosed 1ml in a 30l tank full of shrimp with no issues.

The No Planaria product is not based on Panacur.

Always have a bottle handy, use it on the dogs and in the fish tanks works both ways for me, note that there is an expiry date on the bottles, I always check and when it expires I bin it and buy another one.

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Hi Paulo,

Thanks very much for the advice and the tip for getting hold of Panacur.

Water change done, all three remaining discus are still alive, although two are in the right hand corner and the one that was looking the worse out of the three is tucked away in the left hand corner.

While doing the water change I cleaned the glass and noticed there was a very clean and clear but slightly oily feel to the glass. I am guessing this is residue from the No Planaria product. There is not a single Planaria worm in sight, so I guess the stuff has had some effect on these, unless they have all headed for the depths of the substrate to get away from it.

Next time I feed the discus with Mysis shrimp I will know then if they are gone or not.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Hi All,

I have run out of the 6% Hydrogen Peroxide to use with the Sochting Oxygenator. I can get hold of it from a supplier on eBay who deals with Sochting as a UK distributor. Trouble is it comes in a liter bottle for a few quid but costs £12.00 plus to send it by courier because he can't send it via Royal Mail.

I found the 6% solution on Lloyd's Pharmacy website which is clinical or food grade quality but also contains a trace of Phospheric Acid plus hydrogenised water. I am guessing that this is not advisable, but grateful if anyone can confirm one way or the other.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[flygja]

Very sad to hear about your discus mate. I've had similar incidents where discus health suddenly degrade and they die, with no known causes. I got so frustrated and disappointed at one point that i almost gave up on discus. In any case, I would suggest to raise the water temp to 29-30'C as this helps increase discus metabolism and helps them fight disease. Whenever my own discus look unhealthy, I switch off the cooling fans of my tank and dose API fungus care as needed.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thanks very much for the advice and the tip for getting hold of Panacur.

If you don't mind it buying granules you can buy it really cheaply for treating dogs and cats. I think 4.5g of Panacur (22% Fenbendazole) is about £2.

I also don't think it goes off if it isn't in liquid form.

I used the approx. the same dose as Paulo, 0.1g in 10 litres. I crushed it up with a pestle and mortar, and then dissolved it a small amount of alcohol (Vodka would do).

Last time I used it I skipped the vodka, and just tipped the powder into the tank, and it still seemed to work.

cheer Darrel

 

[alto]

This Reef topic suggests that any pharmacy grade peroxide is fine - look for the quoted material (possibly from Söchting) ... I suspect that the peroxide you've linked is "standard" manufacture & that all peroxide products contain similar - often the difference in clinical/food grade/pharmaceutical grades etc is the product analyses have been done on that production run & are available ...

Good news that all 3 are still upright today.

I'd not consider raising temp for several days.

Again I'll suggest the charcoal - that residue on the glass is a clear indicator of product remaining in the tank in areas that you can't easily clean.

If you had a suitable tank to remove the discus to, I'd consider that as it would allow you better control over water quality.

 

[X3NiTH]

Hi All,

I have run out of the 6% Hydrogen Peroxide to use with the Sochting Oxygenator. I can get hold of it from a supplier on eBay who deals with Sochting as a UK distributor. Trouble is it comes in a liter bottle for a few quid but costs £12.00 plus to send it by courier because he can't send it via Royal Mail.

I found the 6% solution on Lloyd's Pharmacy website which is clinical or food grade quality but also contains a trace of Phospheric Acid plus hydrogenised water. I am guessing that this is not advisable, but grateful if anyone can confirm one way or the other.

Thanks,

Steve

There may be two different types of this stuff available over the counter from Lloyds as mine slightly differs to that description.

I have the Care+ stuff, 'Hydrogen Peroxide Solution 6% 20 vols', it's a slightly different label though (yellow circle portion of label around image of hand is white bordered with red and the yellow field below with writing is brown, same text though except for an inclusion of a red warning label below main body of text which reads 'External Use Only'), it was bought over the counter from a Lloyds Pharmacy, the ingredients listed on the back are -

Active Ingredient: hydrogen peroxide 6% w/v
Also Contains: phosphoric acid (E338), phenacetin and purified water.

Using it to nuke BBA, the first bottle of H2O2 I had was from boots as it was 6% pure without the unnecessary extras but the last time I tried to get it over the counter I was told they don't stock it anymore, had to go to Lloyds and the above stuff was all they had. It still works to nuke BBA, but I haven't used it in the presence of fish only plants. The phenacetin it contains is an Analgesic (metabolises to paracetamol), not sure how that would affect fish if they come into contact with it, there's no information on how much per volume there is, you couldn't trust it to be trace amounts.

Regarding using Panacur/fenbendazole to treat planaria in the future, the vet I tried only had it in syrup form (didn't fancy the syrup component which may or may not have caused extra issues to the ones I was trying to cure) ended up with the Panacur dry granule sachets from P@H and I can say they are a pig to get into solution (I should have ground them up more before adding to water), I used RO/DI to mix with it, it took a few days for it to break up enough for me to say that when I shook the bottle it was 'in solution', it still sediments on the bottom of its container as a mixed up solution if left to settle, a good shake of the bottle and it's back to being suspended as a solution again for a little while but once it's in the tank generally that's where you want it to end up (in the sediment). Hit my planarians quite hard but didn't wipe them out entirely, deep sediment ones appeared to recover after a while but the population was hit really hard, shrimps had a good time though pulling out and feasting on the dead. Next time I need to treat I'm going to inject directly into the substrate where it's needed the most for a more direct approach rather than dosing the water column which goes cloudy for a day or so while it sediments out of solution.

 

[REDSTEVEO]

I have the Care+ stuff, 'Hydrogen Peroxide Solution 6% 20 vols', it's a slightly different label though (yellow circle portion of label around image of hand is white bordered with red and the yellow field below with writing is brown, same text though except for an inclusion of a red warning label below main body of text which reads 'External Use Only'), it was bought over the counter from a Lloyds Pharmacy, the ingredients listed on the back are -

Active Ingredient: hydrogen peroxide 6% w/v
Also Contains: phosphoric acid (E338), phenacetin and purified water.

Hi X3NiTH,

The Hydrogen Peroxide goes inside a sealed rigid plastic container with the ceramic catalysts, then placed upside down inside the Ceramic Oxugenator pot and a Ceramic ball sits on top of that, so as far as I know the chemical does not ever come into contact with the water, just the escaping O2 that comes out through two tiny holes in the bottom of the plastic container.

What do you reckon, safe enough to use or not?

I'll give the powdered form of Panacur a miss thanks

Steve

 

[X3NiTH]

The phenacetin likely not much of an issue for contact with water column if it's separated from it, only issue is if it somehow interacts with the catalytic process going on. From reading up on catalytic reactions and h2o2 taking the phosphoric acid content of this solution into account I have no idea if it's being used to adjust the pH of the h2o2 making it slightly more energetic at the 6% concentration under the conditions it is to be used in or if it's there to allow the phenacetin to remain in solution by making the solution more acidic, however it will likely be very small amounts and probably of a very low concentration itself as this product directs that it can be used as a mouthwash and gargle, phosphoric acid and teeth not the best combination as in higher concentrations its used as a dental etchant which is why it probably states not to be used for under 12's unless on the say 'so of a doctor', so probably not very safe to use in the presence of milk teeth, so likely a stronger concentration than what's in fizzy pop.

From having a look at the description for your device it appears that the catalyst used is a perishable item to be replaced intermittently so the presence of phosphoric acid may cause the catalysts longevity to decrease if it can eat the support medium that's holding the metal catalyst and because h2o2 catalytic reactions are influenced pH and phosphoric acid influences pH the reaction may be more energetic, but since the instructions direct you not to use 35% food grade solution which is very energetic and even give precise instructions on how to dilute to down to a 6% solution from 35%, then it's probably safe to use in the presence of phosphoric acid only that the reaction may just be a little quicker. There's a catalysed 35% h2o2 reaction over on YouTube that makes some interesting watching, although it's likely using a more exotic flavour of metal than the catalyst contained within the ceramics for this device.

If it's all you can get then if it were me I would test first and add a drop or two onto the catalyst to see how it reacts, if it reacts exactly like you expect it to compared to that used previously then it's probably safe to use for the purpose you intend. A more energetic reaction just means more gas produced (and heat of course), if it's too quick then it may produce enough gas that the container can't cope with the quickly expanding volume and fail, I can't see that happening though at the 6% concentration.

You could try Boots, you'll need to ask at the pharmacy if it's not on the shelf, they may have some 6% h2o2 that comes without the extras you'd rather do without and take the doubt out the equation.

 

[Nelson]

http://www.freshwatershrimp.co.uk/category.php?id_category=94
Postage £7.99.

 

[REDSTEVEO]

The phenacetin likely not much of an issue for contact with water column if it's separated from it, only issue is if it somehow interacts with the catalytic process going on. From reading up on catalytic reactions and h2o2 taking the phosphoric acid content of this solution into account I have no idea if it's being used to adjust the pH of the h2o2 making it slightly more energetic at the 6% concentration under the conditions it is to be used in or if it's there to allow the phenacetin to remain in solution by making the solution more acidic, however it will likely be very small amounts and probably of a very low concentration itself as this product directs that it can be used as a mouthwash and gargle, phosphoric acid and teeth not the best combination as in higher concentrations its used as a dental etchant which is why it probably states not to be used for under 12's unless on the say 'so of a doctor', so probably not very safe to use in the presence of milk teeth, so likely a stronger concentration than what's in fizzy pop.

From having a look at the description for your device it appears that the catalyst used is a perishable item to be replaced intermittently so the presence of phosphoric acid may cause the catalysts longevity to decrease if it can eat the support medium that's holding the metal catalyst and because h2o2 catalytic reactions are influenced pH and phosphoric acid influences pH the reaction may be more energetic, but since the instructions direct you not to use 35% food grade solution which is very energetic and even give precise instructions on how to dilute to down to a 6% solution from 35%, then it's probably safe to use in the presence of phosphoric acid only that the reaction may just be a little quicker. There's a catalysed 35% h2o2 reaction over on YouTube that makes some interesting watching, although it's likely using a more exotic flavour of metal than the catalyst contained within the ceramics for this device.

If it's all you can get then if it were me I would test first and add a drop or two onto the catalyst to see how it reacts, if it reacts exactly like you expect it to compared to that used previously then it's probably safe to use for the purpose you intend. A more energetic reaction just means more gas produced (and heat of course), if it's too quick then it may produce enough gas that the container can't cope with the quickly expanding volume and fail, I can't see that happening though at the 6% concentration.

You could try Boots, you'll need to ask at the pharmacy if it's not on the shelf, they may have some 6% h2o2 that comes without the extras you'd rather do without and take the doubt out the equation.

X3NiTH,

You know what I like about this forum? When guys like you come on and take the time and the effort to give support and advice of this quality. That is what I call an A Star response my friend. I will go out and get this tomorrow and exercise caution by testing it first as you recommend.

I am so grateful for the time you have taken to answer this and provide a solution to the solution

Best regards,

Steve

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Postage £7.99.

Nelson,

Thanks very much for the heads up on the contact for this. Before I run out I will probably get it from here, unless this other stuff works like a dream, at £1.99 for a 200ml bottle that works out at around a tenner for a litre and I can pick it up in minutes.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[REDSTEVEO]

This Reef topic suggests that any pharmacy grade peroxide is fine - look for the quoted material (possibly from Söchting) ... I suspect that the peroxide you've linked is "standard" manufacture & that all peroxide products contain similar - often the difference in clinical/food grade/pharmaceutical grades etc is the product analyses have been done on that production run & are available ...

Good news that all 3 are still upright today.

I'd not consider raising temp for several days.

Again I'll suggest the charcoal - that residue on the glass is a clear indicator of product remaining in the tank in areas that you can't easily clean.

If you had a suitable tank to remove the discus to, I'd consider that as it would allow you better control over water quality.

Thanks for the link alto, an interesting read on the subject of the peroxide and the use of Sochting Oxygenators.

Steve

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Hi Paulo,

Thanks very much for the advice and the tip for getting hold of Panacur.

Water change done, all three remaining discus are still alive, although two are in the right hand corner and the one that was looking the worse out of the three is tucked away in the left hand corner.

Paulo,

I have worked out why two of the discus are in the right hand corner of the tank and the one that was looking the worse out of the three is tucked away behind a load of bogwood and plants in the left hand corner. The two on the right hand side are both Red Curipeau males, the other one on the left side is the red Curipeau female, and every time she comes out the males are already nudging her and she is definitely not up for any of that at the moment.

Trouble is she can't stay tucked away there and not come out for food otherwise she will deteriorate. So should I be removing one of the males and go against Alto's advice on page 25 a few posts up.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[alto]

Is there any way you can create a net barrier creating 2 separate tank areas? this would likely be the best solution for all fish involved.

Note that as the previous pair has "broken", further pairing may be with different fish.

Re hydrogen peroxide, food grade or pharmaceutical grade is about as "pure" as it gets, there are further discussions on this

here

&

here (last page)

You might also contact the manufacturer

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Is there any way you can create a net barrier creating 2 separate tank areas? this would likely be the best solution for all fish involved.

Note that as the previous pair has "broken", further pairing may be with different fish.

Re hydrogen peroxide, food grade or pharmaceutical grade is about as "pure" as it gets, there are further discussions on this

here

&

here (last page)

You might also contact the manufacturer

Hi Alto,

The Hydrogen Peroxide solution is sorted

I see what you mean about the previous pairing being 'broken'
I have got some white plastic egg shell crating that I could use to divide the tank, it would look a bit ugly but I suppose it might be worth a try. The female is still behind the bog wood, I need to move the female to the right hand side where there is a bit more space, and shift the two males to the left.

Bit of a palarva, plus I need to cut the egg shell crate to size

Cheers,

Steve

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Hi Steve, you can buy panacur in liquid form from Amazon, no need to visit the vet any longer.

The recommended dosage when I first used it 5-6 years ago was 0.1ml per 10l, but I have dosed 1ml in a 30l tank full of shrimp with no issues.

The No Planaria product is not based on Panacur.

Always have a bottle handy, use it on the dogs and in the fish tanks works both ways for me, note that there is an expiry date on the bottles, I always check and when it expires I bin it and buy another one.

Paulo,

I forgot to ask what was the percentage strength of the Liquid Panacur you have been using?

I saw this on Amazon for £15.43 a bottle
Panacur 10% x 100ml Liquid for Cats & Dogs
by Panacur

Thanks,

Steve