Karmicnull
Member
Interesting, thanks. High tech is definitely on the horizon at some point - or more likely "mid-tech" @Hufsa-style!
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Lean dosing pros and cons
- Thread starter Riverside Scaper
- Start date
Karmicnull
Member
MichaelJ
Member
Ah yes @plantnoobdude, we just had a thread discussing your tank and TDS... Sorry I forgot!
Cheers,
Michael
MichaelJ
Member
Hi Darrel, One thing I am still wondering about - and sort of the reason why I still add some buffer capacity (CO3) is the significance of the pH level the drop might happen from - say if you have a 0.5 pH or larger drop from a pH ~5.5 (resulting in a pH at or below 5.0 which is borderline lethal( is it?) territory for many species including beneficial bacteria). On the other hand, other than CO2, I am also asking myself what could possibly incur such a large drop in an otherwise healthy and well-maintained low-tech tank?
Well, at least for the sake of being able to even measure pH with our test kits you need some KH there I suppose.
Cheers,
Michael
plantnoobdude
Member
I believe pikez kept rainbows at ph in high 3s, various other high tech softwater tank owners keep their ph in high 4s low 5s. I doubt a ph of 5 would be lethal to fish/shrimps. you;d reach the co2 toxicity limit far before the ph alone becomes the issue. i'd think
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @plantnoobdude Interesting. I am only familiar with Cardinals being able to sustain the high-mid 3 range for a longer period of time. Anyway, very low pH (<5) is definitely unfamiliar territory for me personally, and would like to understand it better vs. livestock and plants.
Cheers,
Michael
maybe i should make a topic in fertilizer's forum ?Hoo boy this thread has turned into a bit of an umbrella thread
Maybe it would be more organised if we split into a few new threads?
At least one for the effects of low kh and ph, and maybe also one for Eminors micro question?
Hi all,
I've settled on 80 - 140 microS as my conductivity range, but that is really because 140 microS is about the highest conductivity value that we get in the rain-water (late summer). During the winter that goes down to about 30 microS (after very heavy rain or snow).
cheers Darrel
Unfortunately it is unknown territory for me as well. I've always used rain-water, and that has some carbonate (dKH) buffering, so I don't really know how low the pH goes. During the day it is always well above pH7, but that just reflects that the water is fairly fully saturated with dissolved oxygen. I know the pH must go below pH7 during the night, because of the shell attrition on the snail shells, but I don't know how low it goes.
I've settled on 80 - 140 microS as my conductivity range, but that is really because 140 microS is about the highest conductivity value that we get in the rain-water (late summer). During the winter that goes down to about 30 microS (after very heavy rain or snow).
cheers Darrel
MichaelJ
Member
Hi Darrel, A little bit off topic, but on the topic of extremely low pH there is a fascinating paper on the significance of DOC in extreme low pH environments.
From the abstract: "The so-called “blackwaters” of the Amazonian Rio Negro are rich in highly coloured dissolved organic carbon (DOC), but ion-poor and very acidic, conditions that would cause fatal ionoregulatory failure in most fish. However these blackwaters support 8% of the world’s ichthyofauna. We tested the hypothesis that native DOC provides protection against ionoregulatory dysfunction in this extreme environment."
As I am sure you know Darrel, the pH in Rio Negro is routinely in the 3.0-5.5 pH range (I've seen as low as 2.8 pH quoted other places as the extreme low end).
Cheers,
Michael
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @Hufsa Good point. I guess as long as we are talking about things that are lean, we're still kind of on-topic, I think
... but it kind of brings me back to the topic of asking the moderators (@LondonDragon et. al) to setup an "alternative fert approaches" or "alternative methods" section, that I, among others, have promoted in the past to keep things more on topic.Anyway, I am as guilty as anyone else at squatting threads with unrelated topics
Cheers,
Michael
plantnoobdude
Member
I just thought that was what we were supposed to do!!!Anyway, I am as guilty as anyone else to squat threads with unrelated topic
MichaelJ
Member
Haha... Yes, I guess to a certain extent its unavoidable and probably what makes a discussion forum like this vibrant and engaging. If we had the mods coming down hard on us every time we would divert the discussion it wouldn't be as much fun I guess.I just thought that was what we were supposed to do!!!
(and here we are... at it again, going off topic
)Cheers,
Michael
plantnoobdude
Member
what michael said is spot on.
if you take a look at mulders chart, you will see that various hard water nutrients that come with kh, Ca, Mg, K....
inhibit uptake of other nutrients, Ca for example doesn't improve uptake of any nutrients. so having it in excess can mean you have to dose more micros, I believe @Happi has had this experience and can confirm.
if you take a look at mulders chart, you will see that various hard water nutrients that come with kh, Ca, Mg, K....
inhibit uptake of other nutrients, Ca for example doesn't improve uptake of any nutrients. so having it in excess can mean you have to dose more micros, I believe @Happi has had this experience and can confirm.
maybe we need to collect some data points? Here's mine
Gh 6
Kh 3.5
tapwater pH (degassed) 7.5
Weekly Water column dosing (APT EI + Epsom Salt) [exclude substrate feeding]
NO3 5.8ppm
PO4 1.9ppm
K 7.9ppm
Fe 0.22ppm
Mg 3.7ppm
John q
Member
For data purposes only. Not suggesting these numbers will work.
Kh 1 (Soft tap water)
Gh 2~3
Tank ph range 7.2 ~ 6.4
Tank temp 25.2 Celsius
Ca 2 ppm (added with water change)
Mg 1ppm (added with water change)
Weekly ferts added.
No3 7ppm
P04 2.27ppm
K 8.42ppm
Mg 1.35ppm
Fe 0.25ppm (from csm+b)
Fe 0.09ppm Dtpa
Heavy fish stocking.
