Super basic how many plants question?

[GraemeVW]

I'm trying to work out what plants to order for my 100x40x50 tank.
I'm pretty new to all this.
Think I've narrowed down what I want to try but don't really know what amounts to order?
I plan on soil under sand, ferts, but no co2.

Current list is
10x bunches of cabomba aquatics
1x Limnophila sessiliflora, see if i like it
3x Nymphaea rubra
3x bunches vallisneria spiralis
1x pot? Lilaeopsis brasilensis
1x pot? Myriophyllum Guyana
3x Echinodorus Bleheri, might only use 1 though
Hydrocotyle Verticillata, pot, or some seeds
1x pot Limnobium laevigatum Frogbit

Plan is a load of cabomba, some vallis here and there, a sword in one rear corner, 3 lilys spread in the mid ground, some of the smaller stuff mid to front. Basically though, see what grows well, what doesn't.

I didn't really want that many different plants but want to try a few.
Is this enough to be setting up with though?

 

[seedoubleyou]

All depends what your budget is. As I’d say times it by 3 maybe 5 to start out with.

 

[GraemeVW]

All depends what your budget is. As I’d say times it by 3 maybe 5 to start out with.

Really?
My list is £70 in plants, which is fine, but £350 in plants? Is that usual?
I'm a bit clueless at the moment 😂

I know its good to start with as many as possible though

Although really, I am looking at just a cabomba forest, so would be cheap enough to add a load more of that.

Ok to plant in 2 waves? Might have more of an idea what I want more of once I've planted some.

 

[_Maq_]

I plan on soil under sand

I suggest you can save money by not putting soil under sand. Even if you take a garden soil 'for free', you'll save a lot by decreasing losses of your plants. (My personal, well-meant suggestion. Some think differently, I admit.)

 

[GraemeVW]

I suggest you can save money by not putting soil under sand. Even if you take a garden soil 'for free', you'll save a lot by decreasing losses of your plants. (My personal, well-meant suggestion. Some think differently, I admit.)

My plan was to use aquatic compost. I used garden soil in my 60l cube, which was pointless in the end as it ended up just with anubias and java fern.
The aquatic compost is £6, so the cost doesnt matter, but I'm intrigued by you saying decrease losses of plants. Can you explain a little more?
Thanks.

 

[Midwife]

Some of the plants you have listed might be challenging. I could easily plant that aquarium out with £70 budget. I really think you should consider Crypts. Limnophila is easy and nice but it sends out runners once established which I find annoying. I prefer Hygrophila Sunset
If I had to choose one Crypt I would plump for cryptocoryne Wendtii Tropica. Its beautiful and easy.

 

[_Maq_]

Well, this is an opinion based on many instances when beginners and medium advanced hobbyists crashed with soil substrates.
The main problem with soils is high organic content. That is the substrate (meaning 'food') for heterotrophic microbes. Once such a soil gets submerged, the microbes quickly consume all oxygen available and turn to suboxic or anoxic metabolisms. As a result, they produce really huge amount of partially degraded, unstable organic compounds. These compounds as well as elevated oxygen demand within the substrate are harmful to plants' roots. Forget ammonia, these things are far worse. And plants are especially vulnerable after planting.
In a bit worse scenario, these dissolved organic substances spread from substrate to the water column. Bacterial blooms follow, with extremely high demand for oxygen. Plants suffer from oxygen deficit, they get virtually suffocated & poisoned. Losses can be and often are quite substantial.
It requires longer time and many water changes to stabilize the initial 'microbial storm'. Only very advanced aquarists are successful in managing it.
Besides, and perhaps more to the point, I believe that "soils" actually bring no benefit compared to silica sand. Again, this is only my opinion, but I consider all those recommendations about 'nutrient stock' etc. a misconception. Microbes require quite the same nutrients like plants. If ever there are any nutrients available anywhere, microbes proliferate massively. A lack of oxygen will not stop them, they'd only turn to anaerobic metabolism which is the source of harmful substances. This is what we get instead of nutrient stock.
Carefully chosen additives to silica sand - purified clays, zeolites, ferric oxide, peat, a.o. - may improve adsorption quality of a substrate, but certain knowledge on their effects and on biotic and abiotic processes within the sediment is necessary. All in all, pure silica sand is the safest bet. It works. It's eternal (unlike semi-burnt soils). It's easier to maintain. Within weeks after establishing a tank, sand gets enriched with detritus, which is a good adsorbent and you get to 'nutrient stock' as close as possible. Unless you are making money on producing or selling soil substrates, you can live happily without them.

 

[GraemeVW]

Some of the plants you have listed might be challenging. I could easily plant that aquarium out with £70 budget. I really think you should consider Crypts. Limnophila is easy and nice but it sends out runners once established which I find annoying. I prefer Hygrophila Sunset
If I had to choose one Crypt I would plump for cryptocoryne Wendtii Tropica. Its beautiful and easy.

I'm sort of trying to keep it south american, but there could be some leway.
I was only putting the limnophilia, and the myriophyllum, in to have some plants that are a bit like the cabomba, but on a different scale, and to see how they each grow, heights, speed etc, in case I want to move towards those.

As I say, pretty much just want something like cabomba, and some red lily. Everything else I'm only really adding to see how I feel about them.
I'm a little concerned that if I just planted the whole thing out in cabomba ill just be swamped in it, and forever pruning.

I am just taking a bit of a stab in the dark though. Trying to get this kind of feel but not really sure how to replicate it on the scale of an aquarium

 

[GraemeVW]

Well, this is an opinion based on many instances when beginners and medium advanced hobbyists crashed with soil substrates.
The main problem with soils is high organic content. That is the substrate (meaning 'food') for heterotrophic microbes. Once such a soil gets submerged, the microbes quickly consume all oxygen available and turn to suboxic or anoxic metabolisms. As a result, they produce really huge amount of partially degraded, unstable organic compounds. These compounds as well as elevated oxygen demand within the substrate are harmful to plants' roots. Forget ammonia, these things are far worse. And plants are especially vulnerable after planting.
In a bit worse scenario, these dissolved organic substances spread from substrate to the water column. Bacterial blooms follow, with extremely high demand for oxygen. Plants suffer from oxygen deficit, they get virtually suffocated & poisoned. Losses can be and often are quite substantial.
It requires longer time and many water changes to stabilize the initial 'microbial storm'. Only very advanced aquarists are successful in managing it.
Besides, and perhaps more to the point, I believe that "soils" actually bring no benefit compared to silica sand. Again, this is only my opinion, but I consider all those recommendations about 'nutrient stock' etc. a misconception. Microbes require quite the same nutrients like plants. If ever there are any nutrients available anywhere, microbes proliferate massively. A lack of oxygen will not stop them, they'd only turn to anaerobic metabolism which is the source of harmful substances. This is what we get instead of nutrient stock.
Carefully chosen additives to silica sand - purified clays, zeolites, ferric oxide, peat, a.o. - may improve adsorption quality of a substrate, but certain knowledge on their effects and on biotic and abiotic processes within the sediment is necessary. All in all, pure silica sand is the safest bet. It works. It's eternal (unlike semi-burnt soils). It's easier to maintain. Within weeks after establishing a tank, sand gets enriched with detritus, which is a good adsorbent and you get to 'nutrient stock' as close as possible. Unless you are making money on producing or selling soil substrates, you can live happily without them.

Thank you for that, I think I'll probably read it a couple more times to fully appreciate it.
I know the majority of the plants I'm thinking of don't need nutrient rich substrate anyway.

I was working on the impression that even if nothing needed soil, it wouldn't do any harm if it was there. But maybe that's not the case.

 

[_Maq_]

Trying to get this kind of feel but not really sure how to replicate it on the scale of an aquarium

Check Eleocharis montevidensis. South-American.

 

[GraemeVW]

Check Eleocharis montevidensis. South-American.

I like that. I can make use of that. Thanks.

The pic I posted seems to be all cabomba and Nymphaea. I can't just have a carpet of that though, so my plan was to have cabomba in the rear half, a few Nymphaea sort of in the edge of that, something maybe like cabomba but smaller, or slower growing mixed into the planting edge too.
As I don't really want LOTS of Lily stems with floating leaves (some though), so I was going to try and get a slightly similar effect by adding in some vallis, but that grass may work better.

The other plants I was just adding some of for the sake of it, and because otherwise everything is really tall.

I'm very much treating this as an experimental learn by doing type thing.

I'm not going to a super pruned and preened aquascape, but im not going for full on biotope either.
Just something with that feel, in a way that won't be TOO steep a learning curve.

 

[Midwife]

Limnophila grows very fast. Its the fastest plant I've used.. It will reach the top quickly then grow along the water surface not out of it. Vallisneria is another fast one and annoying due to runners. I don't know what it is with Vallisneria but it seems to be a magnet for bba in my books. If I remember correctly Vallisneria doesn't respond well to being trimmed. It also doesn't like liquid carbon.

 

[GraemeVW]

Limnophila grows very fast. Its the fastest plant I've used.. It will reach the top quickly then then grow along the water not out of it. Vallisneria is another fast one and annoying due to runners. I don't know what it is with Vallisneria but it seems to be a magnet for bba in my books. If I remember correctly Vallisneria doesn't respond well to being trimmed. It also doesn't like liquid carbon.

I'm very much not married to the thought of limnophila, I'll happily leave it out. To be honest, in the distant past when I've had plants in tanks, vallis has never really inspired me much either. Was just looking for some tall thin plants to mix in with the cabomba.

 

[seedoubleyou]

I'm sort of trying to keep it south american, but there could be some leway.
I was only putting the limnophilia, and the myriophyllum, in to have some plants that are a bit like the cabomba, but on a different scale, and to see how they each grow, heights, speed etc, in case I want to move towards those.

As I say, pretty much just want something like cabomba, and some red lily. Everything else I'm only really adding to see how I feel about them.
I'm a little concerned that if I just planted the whole thing out in cabomba ill just be swamped in it, and forever pruning.

I am just taking a bit of a stab in the dark though. Trying to get this kind of feel but not really sure how to replicate it on the scale of an aquarium

Looking at the image, that very much looks like it would translate to a few hundred pounds worth of plants mate yeah.

 

[GraemeVW]

Looking at the image, that very much looks like it would translate to a few hundred pounds worth of plants mate yeah.

If that's what it needs....

It's hard to judge when you don't really know what your doing 😂
I suspect I need to plan things a bit better, hence me asking these questions.

 

[seedoubleyou]

If that's what it needs....

It's hard to judge when you don't really know what your doing 😂
I suspect I need to plan things a bit better, hence me asking these questions.

Aquarium gardens or one of the other sponsors could guide you on putting together a planting package that suits your needs and tank size I’m sure.

 

[GraemeVW]

Aquarium gardens or one of the other sponsors could guide you on putting together a planting package that suits your needs and tank size I’m sure.

I have ordered from them before and been impressed.

They don't seem to list most of what I want though.
Maybe I should message them anyway.

 

[seedoubleyou]

Worth a try. But ultimately just work to your budget mate.

 

[GraemeVW]

I've e.mailed them, see what they say.
If not, I'll just have a stab at it an see how it goes.

 

[erwin123]

My plan was to use aquatic compost. I used garden soil in my 60l cube, which was pointless in the end as it ended up just with anubias and java fern.
The aquatic compost is £6, so the cost doesnt matter, but I'm intrigued by you saying decrease losses of plants. Can you explain a little more?
Thanks.

have you considered Aquasoil (like ADA Amazonia) or is that outside your budget?

one advantage you have is that you already have a 60l cube, so if you transfer over the water and filter media from your established 60l, the new tank should be "almost" cycled. (start saving your water from water changes...)

(I recently set up a 90p using fresh Amazonia v2 soil but with plants/water/media from the old tank... the tank seemed to have cycled more or less instantly because I skipped the diatom stage and went straight to scraping GDA off the glass, just like in my old tank 😅 )