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HC... what a pain

omen

omen

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2009
Messages
102
Did a bit of a rescape about 6 weeks ago, and added 6 pots of HC. Some of the pots were melting, but soon bounced back and put out nice compact leaves. However to my eye, in the 6 weeks up to now there does not appear to be any amount of growth, perhaps a very small amount. I was hoping t have an established carpet by now, but at this rate it's going to take years!

Tank specs:
100 litre
4x24w t5 luminaire, lighting gradually increased to 8 hours currently.
Fluval 405 outputting via full length spray bar
UP C02 atomizer providing very light green on drop checker during entire lighting period.
Mature Akadama substrate
Dosing Tobi ferts @ 10ml per day, and 5ml per day of trace.

Previously I had the tank carpetted with E Tenellus, which I know is a much easier plant, but at that time I was only running on 2x24w lights, and had outstanding growth.

I suspect the issue may be to do with the akadama, as the particle size of it is quite large, and most days I find patches of HC that has decided it wants to be a floating plant now... I'm not seeing any irregular algaes, just a little bit of GDA on the glass and rock work which is to be expected, and is cleaned every week. Water changes are 50% per week.

The HC appears to be putting out nice roots ok, but just not really spreading, any tips? I believe HC loves light, c02 and lots of nitrates?
 
There are two sizes of Akadama apparently. Are you using the bigger one ? (3 to 5mm grain size I believe). The smaller Akadama is no bigger then stuff like Colombo florabase or the ADA stuff, and I know people have success growing HC in that. Do you have reflectors on your lights, and how high are they suspended about the tank ? Just wondering if they are punching down to the substrate level. I cannot imagine it is to do with CO2 level or distribution and your ferts seems high enough.
 
The akadama I have would be the larger sized, 3-5mm grains. A few weeks back I further tweaked my scape, and thinking the grain size was an issue, I put a layer of tesco cat litter on which is a much smaller grain size. It is odd, I thought with lots of light, c02 and ferts it would take off. I've not melting or algae on it, and the leaves are a nice compact size with good colour, its just not exhibiting any noticeable growth... It appears to have grown decent roots, but hte roots aren't attaching themselves to the substrate?

For reference, I also have a lot of trident fern and some hydrocotyle japan in the tank, so possibly I need to up the ferts?
 
Oh, sorry, the light is on tank brackets, and does have a reflector, previously I had no issues growing hairgrass, P Stellata, or Limnophila Aromatica in the tank when I just had 2x24w, now with 4x24w I figured HC would be a doddle...
 
Weird. I dont know the composition of the Tobi ferts you are using, having not heard of them. Could it be that they are lacking in something the HC requires ?
 
Antipofish said:
..I cannot imagine it is to do with CO2 level or distribution...
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This is exactly why people fail with HC. Try imagining it.

omen said:
...now with 4x24w I figured HC would be a doddle...
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Adding more light does not make life easier, it makes it more difficult because you now need more CO2. Try adding enough CO2 so that the dropchecker is yellow at lights on. Adding liquid carbon will also help.

omen said:
...just a little bit of GDA on the glass...which is to be expected...
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I don't expect GDA at all. If this is GDA then it's yet another indication that CO2 levels are not supporting the serious demand created by the light energy. If it's GSA then it indicates any combination of poor CO2 and poor PO4.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Antipofish said:
..I cannot imagine it is to do with CO2 level or distribution...
Click to expand...
This is exactly why people fail with HC. Try imagining it.
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Without being rude, Clive, I did read the thread and based my comment on what was said by the OP! I didn't just conjure up the comment "I can't imagine...." it was based on the information provided. The OP stated....

"UP C02 atomizer providing very light green on drop checker during entire lighting period."
"Fluval 405 outputting via full length spray bar"

Perhaps I should have written "based on the information you have given us about the level of CO2 in your tank, and the nature of distribution.... I cannot imagine it is to do with CO2 level or distribution" :rolleyes:

You have suggested to others the precise method of distribution that the OP says he has. And your article on using drop checkers suggests the very colour that he has. I was merely going by that.

Also, many people who set their CO2 to achieve a yellow dropchecker find that it can adversely affect their fish. Advice I have received from others on here tends to be against having such high levels.
 
Also, many people who set their CO2 to achieve a yellow dropchecker find that it can adversely affect their fish. Advice I have received from others on here tends to be against having such high levels.
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then your only option is drop light.

Besides, I have yellow drop checker and fish and shrimp are fine :) never seen them gasping.. you just have to tune it right.
 
Radik said:
Also, many people who set their CO2 to achieve a yellow dropchecker find that it can adversely affect their fish. Advice I have received from others on here tends to be against having such high levels.
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then your only option is drop light.

Besides, I have yellow drop checker and fish and shrimp are fine :) never seen them gasping.. you just have to tune it right.
Click to expand...

The point is, Radik, CO2 levels, drop checker colour etc is very much a "per tank" issue. Some people will have happy fish at higher CO2 levels others will not. Also, it has a lot (I suspect) to do with acclimitasation. Suddenly whack the CO2 up so you get a yellow drop checker one day when it was green the previous one and you are asking for trouble. People tend to forget about livestock and concentrate on plants only. You wouldn't suddenly change your pH from 6.3 to 8.4 overnight because someone said it would make your plants grow better. And I think the same caution needs to apply to other criteria which can be equally toxic to fish. Tom Barr, I believe, runs some of his tanks at 80ppm CO2 with healthy fish. .(I am sure I read that in a thread). But it would not gave gone from zilch to 80ppm in two hours flat.

This is a subject that is incredibly intricate and can be very confusing for beginners, especially when you have one expert saying do one thing and another telling you the opposite.
 
Yes I agree it is per tank you have to tune it to your levels. But definitely drop light down. I found a need to install dimming ballast to my 4x24W .. I am using only 2x24 and in one part of scape it is just too much light I would like to drop it a little down.

The best way is to have PH meter and watch for swings as drop checker lags 3-4 hours behind

Also with solenoid my night PH is 6.2-6.3.. with CO2 on is around 5.5-5.6. Now take that water and shake it in glass jar measure PH and ooops PH is 7.5. So my fish should be already gassed and dead according to charts right?

Now I have 2 drop checkers one inside tank another external they show different color when I am checking them against same white wall outside of tank. and it is same solution inside... you simply can not trust it. One is green other one is yellow before starting CO2 injection.

My KH is 0 so any chart is useless for me it is just observation of behavior and growth.
 
Hi,
its important to remember that growth issues 9 times out of 10 are c02 related. Good c02 levels, supported with getting the c02 to the plant via flow and distribution are vital in any set up.
More light = more c02 needed by the plant so a yellow dc may not be enough in this instance with 4x24w over 100l (which is quite high), and therefore toxic c02 levels (for fish) may be required, thus the only way to achieve the 'optimum' levels for a particular tank is to tune in c02 and light, the easiest and most effective way as far as livestock is concerned is to reduce the lighting intensity and consequently the demand for c02.
In this instance flow and distribution appear good with a 405 filter and spraybar, however we dont know the drop off performance from the filter, head height, filter media used etc, so this could also be a contributing factor. Previous success in plant growth suggest if nothing has changed filter wise, then distribution may also not be an issue, so as Radik said, reducing the light is the only way to go, id try reverting back to 2 x24w, get things stabilised and then maybe increase to 3 x24w if necessary. Plants will grow better with lower light but optimum c02 availability, rather than vice versa with too much light and too little c02. Same with all ferts, ei adds to excess so everything is readily available, just think as c02 as another fert.
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
Hi Ady, that makes perfect sense :) Im glad this thread is on as I was contemplating getting more light for my tank too. Now I think I will leave it as it is :)
 
Antipofish said:
Hi Ady, that makes perfect sense :) Im glad this thread is on as I was contemplating getting more light for my tank too. Now I think I will leave it as it is :)
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I would, check this out:
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20184

Not sure of your reasons for thinking about extra light, but for you and the Omen, Ceg's info on page 2 of this thread also has some good info on the light, c02, distribution relationship in plant growth:
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11320.
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
Dropcheckers are really only a "guide" to co2 levels.

With the "lag" taken into consideration a lime green drop checker at the start of the photoperiod could indicate ideal conditions but with a mass of co2 hungry plants, pummled by high light, could exhuast the initial co2 supplies rather quickly.

Currently I have a rather pale yellowy green dropchecker throughout the photoperiod yet I'm having issues with 2 plants. Excuse spelling's, Hygro Pinnitafidia & Echindorus Vesuvius. The hygro is shedding lower leaves and the vesiuvius is just melting slowly from the leaf tips. All other plants are fine. I've been pondering this a week or so now and have just upped the gas, prior to booting up the pc and reading this thread. This is about the 3rd or 4th time I have increased injection rate since the tank start up. Logically thinking, if the plant mass increases then so does the demands for co2.

Many have said it before but "the plants & fish will give better indications of c02 levels than a dropchecker!"
 
For get the extra light. It's just not needed.

As Clive rightly puts, it's all about CO2. I've grown HC with very little light when compared to the size of the tank.

T5 seems to work wonders for horizontal growth and with the addition of easycarbo or similar, HC should flourish.Fert regimes don't have to be maxed out to get good growth, especially with lower intensity's of light.

Added light will just induce algae woes and the likes.
 
Mark Evans said:
For get the extra light. It's just not needed.

As Clive rightly puts, it's all about CO2. I've grown HC with very little light when compared to the size of the tank.

T5 seems to work wonders for horizontal growth and with the addition of easycarbo or similar, HC should flourish.Fert regimes don't have to be maxed out to get good growth, especially with lower intensity's of light.

Added light will just induce algae woes and the likes.
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Hi Mark. My wallet (and me) will be happy to take that advice :thumbup: I currently have 2 x 24w (60cm) over my 80x45x55 tank. One is like a Grolux tube and quite reddish in spectrum and the other is probably about 6500K. Neither are very bright, they do not cover the full length of the aquarium and there are no reflectors. The reason for me thinking about extra light is just that the tank looks dim to me and there are shadowed areas. Do you think just putting decent tubes and reflectors would be all I need to get the aesthetic appearance I want (better illumination) whilst also providing good enough light ? I am certainly happy to do just that rather than spend a couple of hundred on extra lighting right now.
 
Antipofish said:
Do you think just putting decent tubes and reflectors would be all I need to get the aesthetic appearance I want (better illumination) whilst also providing good enough light ? I am certainly happy to do just that rather than spend a couple of hundred on extra lighting right now.
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I would say it would be a wise move. You improve slightly without going overboard, giving further problems. Just my 2p ;)
 
Agreed, reflectors help massively.
 
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