A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Great new video. A hive of activity
Great new video. A hive of activity
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ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (month 5)
- Thread starter pariahrob
- Start date
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
not a bad place for the cardinals to end up!, good luck catching them again if your mate wants them back
They seem to have encouraged your widows out too
Id have thought with your plant mass there will be no issue with the new stock overloading the filter, your tank is a giant one!
Cheerio,
Ady.
not a bad place for the cardinals to end up!, good luck catching them again if your mate wants them back
They seem to have encouraged your widows out too
Id have thought with your plant mass there will be no issue with the new stock overloading the filter, your tank is a giant one!
Cheerio,
Ady.
A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Hi Ady,
this is interesting info.... are you saying that because of the large plant mass, this filters out such a large proportion of the fish waste ? I am very interested, especially if there is some kind of equation about this. I have heard that plants use fish waste, but need to get my head round that in terms of EI dosing... surely if we are already "overloading" the plants with ferts in terms if EI dosing then fish waste is also "over and above" what the plants require (or can utilise)? Or doesn't it work like that ?
(Sorry Rob, hope you don't mind me initiating a slight tangent on your thread... I know you like these mini discussions from a learning aspect though, and it looks like I am about to learn yet something new too )
Ady34 said:not a bad place for the cardinals to end up!, good luck catching them again if your mate wants them back
They seem to have encouraged your widows out too
Id have thought with your plant mass there will be no issue with the new stock overloading the filter, your tank is a giant one!
Cheerio,
Ady.
Hi Ady,
this is interesting info.... are you saying that because of the large plant mass, this filters out such a large proportion of the fish waste ? I am very interested, especially if there is some kind of equation about this. I have heard that plants use fish waste, but need to get my head round that in terms of EI dosing... surely if we are already "overloading" the plants with ferts in terms if EI dosing then fish waste is also "over and above" what the plants require (or can utilise)? Or doesn't it work like that ?
(Sorry Rob, hope you don't mind me initiating a slight tangent on your thread... I know you like these mini discussions from a learning aspect though, and it looks like I am about to learn yet something new too
)
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
I'm all for the learning!
Besides, if you hijack my thread a little I can learn stuff I might miss elsewhere!
Bring it on. This is interesting to me too. Mike at Amazon Aquatics was saying something similar the other day.
I'm all for the learning!
Besides, if you hijack my thread a little I can learn stuff I might miss elsewhere!
Bring it on. This is interesting to me too. Mike at Amazon Aquatics was saying something similar the other day.
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
OH S**T, landed myself in it there..... im no expert but as i understand it plants 'purify' the water by feeding on fish wastes (ammonia) to a degree, as do their roots from the wastes which settle and work their way into the substrate. Also significantly the substrate itself acts as a giant biological filter too, homing beneficial bacteria much like the bio media in the canisters we run.... a bit like living rock in marine set ups which can be run without 'filters', just circulation pumps moving water over the living rock. Water moving over and through the substrate naturally through circulation, and via the plant roots, oxgenate it so these aerobic bacteria can thrive.
Waiting to be shot down...
Ady.
OH S**T, landed myself in it there..... im no expert but as i understand it plants 'purify' the water by feeding on fish wastes (ammonia) to a degree, as do their roots from the wastes which settle and work their way into the substrate. Also significantly the substrate itself acts as a giant biological filter too, homing beneficial bacteria much like the bio media in the canisters we run.... a bit like living rock in marine set ups which can be run without 'filters', just circulation pumps moving water over the living rock. Water moving over and through the substrate naturally through circulation, and via the plant roots, oxgenate it so these aerobic bacteria can thrive.
Waiting to be shot down...
Ady.
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Ady, that is very nearly word for word what I was told the other day, down to the marine analogy too.
I must search for this aquascaping bible you guys must have hidden away.
It's a conspiracy against newbies, I'm sure of it!
Ady, that is very nearly word for word what I was told the other day, down to the marine analogy too.
I must search for this aquascaping bible you guys must have hidden away.
It's a conspiracy against newbies, I'm sure of it!
A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Did the marine analogy also include mention of protein skimmers as a requirement, especially when using just live rock as filtration ? I remember when I ran a marine tank I had to use a skimmer (ok ok I used a Deltec AP 850, which was a MONSTER of a skimmer for my 4ft tank, LOL, in fact it looked SO SEXY that I had it positioned outside the cabinet to show it off ), and the skimmer was responsible for removing a large amount of the waste before it got to live rock filtration stage. So I am wondering how that part of the marine theory applies in freshwater.
pariahrob said:
Did the marine analogy also include mention of protein skimmers as a requirement, especially when using just live rock as filtration ? I remember when I ran a marine tank I had to use a skimmer (ok ok I used a Deltec AP 850, which was a MONSTER of a skimmer for my 4ft tank, LOL, in fact it looked SO SEXY that I had it positioned outside the cabinet to show it off
), and the skimmer was responsible for removing a large amount of the waste before it got to live rock filtration stage. So I am wondering how that part of the marine theory applies in freshwater.
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Cheers,
Ady.
Like i said.... ready to be shot down in flames!.... but it was just an analogy about the filtering effects of in tank medias.... we also tend not to run our high tech planted tanks without filters, so the point was that its about the extra level of filtration that the plants and substrate provide thus aiding our filters, not replacing them.Antipofish said:Did the marine analogy also include mention of protein skimmers as a requirement, especially when using just live rock as filtration ? I remember when I ran a marine tank I had to use a skimmer (ok ok I used a Deltec AP 850, which was a MONSTER of a skimmer for my 4ft tank, LOL, in fact it looked SO SEXY that I had it positioned outside the cabinet to show it off
Cheers,
Ady.
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Just as an extra more detailed explanation of this, Diana Walstad does it better than me:
http://theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_B ... Filtration.
Hope this helps.
Cheerio,
Ady.
In addition to the above, and in reference to the plants being overloaded with the ferts we provide, this is true to an extent, but as i understand it plants prefer the uptake of nitrogen in the form of ammonia, which is in our case 'fish wastes'. When we add more fish to a thriving, established heavily planted tank the ammonia is preferred by the plants to our fertiliser nitrogen sources so they use it up, thus filtering the water of the ammonia without the need for filter bacteria to grow in numbers to cope. Obviously theres no harm in doing extra water changes etc, but planted tanks are better than fish only tanks at coping with extra fish stock. The only reason i know anything about it is because of the tobi's special n fertilizer thread, and its use of urea as a nitrogen source. Some leave out the urea and replace it with other less risky nitrogen fertilisers, but seemingly the plants prefer it direct from the fish...still warmAntipofish said:Hi Ady,
this is interesting info.... are you saying that because of the large plant mass, this filters out such a large proportion of the fish waste ? I am very interested, especially if there is some kind of equation about this. I have heard that plants use fish waste, but need to get my head round that in terms of EI dosing... surely if we are already "overloading" the plants with ferts in terms if EI dosing then fish waste is also "over and above" what the plants require (or can utilise)? Or doesn't it work like that ?
(Sorry Rob, hope you don't mind me initiating a slight tangent on your thread... I know you like these mini discussions from a learning aspect though, and it looks like I am about to learn yet something new too
Just as an extra more detailed explanation of this, Diana Walstad does it better than me:
http://theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_B ... Filtration.
Hope this helps.
Cheerio,
Ady.
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Hi all,
The removal of ammonia has 2 potential routes:
There are then 3 potential routes for removal of NO3- ions:
Plants remove NH3 and NO3 and produce oxygen (O2). The more plants (and oxygen) you have the more NH3 you can deal with.
This also applies to biological filtration in the filter and oxygenated layers of the substrate, as long as there is sufficient oxygen, and some carbonate hardness, the filter bacteria will increase dependent upon the availability of NH3 and NO2.
People usually look at filter capacity in terms of the volume of the filter body and the porosity of the filter media, but this is inherently flawed, as the limiting factor for biological filtration in a canister filter is usually dissolved oxygen. This is why trickle filters, with their large gas exchange surfaces, are more efficient at biological filtration.
In a planted system with a trickle filter, you can both efficiently convert NH3 to NO3, and remove the NO3 by incorporation into plant proteins. In EI the limiting resource would be carbon, so we add CO2. If none of the other resources are limiting, growth is limited by PAR As we ramp up PAR, one or more nutrients will become limiting, so we add more CO2 and nutrients to keep them in balance.
With apologies for the cross-post, but this relationship between plants/oxygen and filtration is covered more fully in "Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium" - <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.
cheers Darrel
Hi all,
As the others have said this is the right idea. If we just deal with nitrogen (N), you have 3 main sources.
- 1. The ammonia (NH3) that the aquatic organisms excrete. This isn't an active process, the ammonia continually diffuses from the gills of the fish, shrimp and snails along the concentration gradient from blood to water. Aquatic organisms can excrete ammonia, even though it is extremely toxic, because of the immediate dilution effect of the surrounding water.
- 2. The break down of protein containing materials by microbial action, which splits the peptide links down into amino acids and eventually ammonia. The protein source could be from old plant leaves, to a very limited degree faeces, and from left over food. If we feed a high protein food we have more potential ammonia from this source.
- 3. The nitrate (NO3-) we add as a plant food, usually from the disassociation of KNO3.
The removal of ammonia has 2 potential routes:
- 1. Uptake by the plant , and assimilation into proteins.
- 2. Microbial conversion into NO2 and NO3, a process that also utilises dissolved oxygen (O2) and carbonate (HCO3-) from the water column.
There are then 3 potential routes for removal of NO3- ions:
- 1. Uptake by the plant, and assimilation into proteins.
- 2. Dilution by water changes.
- 3. Anaerobic de-nitrification, and out-gassing as N2 gas.
Plants remove NH3 and NO3 and produce oxygen (O2). The more plants (and oxygen) you have the more NH3 you can deal with.
This also applies to biological filtration in the filter and oxygenated layers of the substrate, as long as there is sufficient oxygen, and some carbonate hardness, the filter bacteria will increase dependent upon the availability of NH3 and NO2.
People usually look at filter capacity in terms of the volume of the filter body and the porosity of the filter media, but this is inherently flawed, as the limiting factor for biological filtration in a canister filter is usually dissolved oxygen. This is why trickle filters, with their large gas exchange surfaces, are more efficient at biological filtration.
In a planted system with a trickle filter, you can both efficiently convert NH3 to NO3, and remove the NO3 by incorporation into plant proteins. In EI the limiting resource would be carbon, so we add CO2. If none of the other resources are limiting, growth is limited by PAR As we ramp up PAR, one or more nutrients will become limiting, so we add more CO2 and nutrients to keep them in balance.
With apologies for the cross-post, but this relationship between plants/oxygen and filtration is covered more fully in "Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium" - <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.
cheers Darrel
Ian Holdich
Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
nice vid, you sure have some surface agitation going on there! Have you thought about dropping the outlet during photosynthesis and raising it at lights out? There must be a hell of a lot of C02 loss in there.
nice vid, you sure have some surface agitation going on there! Have you thought about dropping the outlet during photosynthesis and raising it at lights out? There must be a hell of a lot of C02 loss in there.
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
It is usually a bit lower compared to the surface. I think this stupidly hot weather the last few days has evaporated the water rather faster than I thought. You're right though, there is a lot more agitation than normal. I'm surprised it showed so much in the video.
Eagle eyes!
It is usually a bit lower compared to the surface. I think this stupidly hot weather the last few days has evaporated the water rather faster than I thought. You're right though, there is a lot more agitation than normal. I'm surprised it showed so much in the video.
Eagle eyes!
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
My carpet has been growing furiously the last couple of weeks and my angled scissors just weren't cutting it (no pun intended), so I ordered some curvy ones from aqua essentials. Good price and very well made. I've bought cheaper tools before from other sources but these are far superior.
Just thought I'd share as this can be an expensive hobby and getting good stuff cheap isn't always easy.
My carpet has been growing furiously the last couple of weeks and my angled scissors just weren't cutting it (no pun intended), so I ordered some curvy ones from aqua essentials. Good price and very well made. I've bought cheaper tools before from other sources but these are far superior.
Just thought I'd share as this can be an expensive hobby and getting good stuff cheap isn't always easy.
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Took a few photos. No background as I had removed it to clean the tank. Still looks ok though and my plants are almost hiding the supports for the luminaire.
I Still have the damned cardinals in there. Probably for another week til my friend can source a new tank. Everything seems ok so far. Water clarity is great. Not sure if that is the otis keeping the glass clean or the perigean (Thanks Chris) or a combo but looks in great condition.
Black widow Tetra. These guys are coming out in the day a lot more and have lovely mirror-like bellies.
Celestial Pearls Danios. Have been pretty feisty from day one. Lovely little fish.
And th obligatory full tank shot. Have to say I'm loving the tank. Looks vibrant but not garish and all seems to be settling well. Thanks again to everybody who has given encouragement and advise!
Took a few photos. No background as I had removed it to clean the tank. Still looks ok though and my plants are almost hiding the supports for the luminaire.
I Still have the damned cardinals in there. Probably for another week til my friend can source a new tank. Everything seems ok so far. Water clarity is great. Not sure if that is the otis keeping the glass clean or the perigean (Thanks Chris) or a combo but looks in great condition.
Black widow Tetra. These guys are coming out in the day a lot more and have lovely mirror-like bellies.
Celestial Pearls Danios. Have been pretty feisty from day one. Lovely little fish.
And th obligatory full tank shot. Have to say I'm loving the tank. Looks vibrant but not garish and all seems to be settling well. Thanks again to everybody who has given encouragement and advise!
sarahtermite
Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Great pics of the CPDs - I'm useless at getting photos of mine, they seem to move way too fast. Kudos to your photographic skills.
Great pics of the CPDs - I'm useless at getting photos of mine, they seem to move way too fast. Kudos to your photographic skills.
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Thanks! The danios look great but are very hard to capture. They are speedy little chaps. The tetras are easier though. I could do with more light really, as the fish shots are a little under exposed but any slower and I'd have a lot of motion blur. I might bring some soft boxes back from work some time and see what I can cobble together.
Thanks! The danios look great but are very hard to capture. They are speedy little chaps. The tetras are easier though. I could do with more light really, as the fish shots are a little under exposed but any slower and I'd have a lot of motion blur. I might bring some soft boxes back from work some time and see what I can cobble together.
A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Awesome pics ! You must be well pleased with how things are going Rob. Oh, and its definitely the Purigen, haha. (The ottos are just keeping the glass clean so you can SEE the gin clear water)
Awesome pics ! You must be well pleased with how things are going Rob. Oh, and its definitely the Purigen, haha. (The ottos are just keeping the glass clean so you can SEE the gin clear water
)
tim
Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
stunning tank rob and your journal is a very good read
stunning tank rob and your journal is a very good read
pariahrob
New Member
Re: ADA 60-P planted tank 'Prairie' (week 8) video
Cheers Chris. Those ottos are doing a great job. I didn't need that razor after all! The water definitely looks clearer with the purigen. Well worth it.
Thanks Tim. Glad you like it. I can (and do) happily sit and watch it for ages. It's a very calming tank to watch, except for feeding time. Then the black widows go berserk and pretty much jump out of the water. They are amazingly agile. That's a bonus as they help the micro pellets sink, so the danios get their share.
Who here uses any kind of cooling system on their tank. I was looking at crossflow fans in my LFS and wondered if they are worthwhile. The tank is in the shade but still pushing 26 for some of the afternoon. Not hugely hot I know but it's May, so can only get hotter. Oh, this is England, so maybe it won't.
Cheers Chris. Those ottos are doing a great job. I didn't need that razor after all! The water definitely looks clearer with the purigen. Well worth it.
Thanks Tim. Glad you like it. I can (and do) happily sit and watch it for ages. It's a very calming tank to watch, except for feeding time. Then the black widows go berserk and pretty much jump out of the water. They are amazingly agile. That's a bonus as they help the micro pellets sink, so the danios get their share.
Who here uses any kind of cooling system on their tank. I was looking at crossflow fans in my LFS and wondered if they are worthwhile. The tank is in the shade but still pushing 26 for some of the afternoon. Not hugely hot I know but it's May, so can only get hotter. Oh, this is England, so maybe it won't.
