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Question for ceg4048

Rahms, there is a 3rd option which is that the tap water simply has some co2 dissolved in it due to the changing preassure in the pipes, temperature etc.
 
Jose said:
Rahms, there is a 3rd option which is that the tap water simply has some co2 dissolved in it due to the changing preassure in the pipes, temperature etc.
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19ppm out of the tap?

not bad!
 
Yeap its very possible. It can even go higher due to many reasons. This is one of the reasons for pearling after a water change.
 
Jose said:
Yeap its very possible. It can even go higher due to many reasons. This is one of the reasons for pearling after a water change.
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in that case, you'd only expect pH to drop 0.2 to get to 30ppm!
 
naughtymoose said:
I can see that measuring with fish is going to cause a lot of discrepancies. I like little fish- Ember Tetras and so on; does this put me at a disadvantage when comparing my pH with someone who likes big fish, such as Clowns? :hilarious:
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Yes but how do you know what is too much for any fish until you see. if your going to do it by accident you may as well learn as much as possible from it. different fish are affected differently so perhaps some people are at a disadvantage.
re. the clown loach tank. its low tech. the 16 clowns provide more than enough co2/nutrients for few anubias in that tank. having clowns is a big disadvantage, give me tetras in a planted tank any day;)
 
Rahms said:
in that case, you'd only expect pH to drop 0.2 to get to 30ppm!
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Yes, the pH drop is meant to be from the equilibrium. Thats why cegs values probably arent from equilibrium with the atmosphere (my guess here).
 
Here is the final answer to my question.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...2511-how-much-co2-and-um-oh-yeah-how-much-co2

So, yes ph drop is independent of kh.

That means cegs example is not meant to be taken as a kh comparisson. It can be missleading, which has been proven by all people who gave their opinion. People here seem to think that in hard water you dont need as high a ph drop for getting getting 30 ppm of co2. This is wrong.
 
Wow I've got a headache!
Can we just have no atmosphere and 100% pure water with no KH or GH then review the results I can live with that ;)
DC, PH PEN, EI, Co2, H20 = Plants and fish Happy IF NOT I'll go to spec savers.
From what I can tell Clive tries to get to a ball park, like we all do.
If you over analyze or over complicate things you sometimes create more problems than solve!
I look at my tank and just relax.:)

Is this a thread to disprove Clive's simple analogy of typical scenarios, or is this actually going to help you achieve your goals?
TBF to Clive he doesn't need to justify himself as I see his contribution to this site, way out weighs his rantings of the Matrix which I still disagree with him its an alright rip off film!:twisted:
 
Jose said:
So, yes ph drop is independent of kh.

WRONG

People here seem to think that in hard water you dont need as high a ph drop for getting getting 30 ppm of co2. This is wrong.

You are very wrong here again.
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There's no point continuing this discussion because you seem to think that you have a better knowledge of chemistry than qualified, trained scientists do. Read the peer-reviewed paper in the post below.

You can continue being wrong if you prefer, I can't be bothered to argue with you anymore.
 
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http://users.rowan.edu/~jahan/Jahan-Hands on an Aquarium/lecturelabs/interactionsphetc.pdf

Go to the section on the second page, entitled 'alkalinity, pH and Carbon Dioxide concentrations'

In water with moderate to high alkalinity (good buffering capacity) and similar hardness levels, pH is neutral or slightly basic (7.0 to 8.3) and does not fluctuate widely. Higher amounts of CO2 (i.e., carbonic acid) or other acids are required to lower pH because there is more base available to neutralize or buffer the acid.

I'll repeat it in case you still don't understand.

Higher amounts of CO2 (i.e., carbonic acid) or other acids are required to lower pH because there is more base available to neutralize or buffer the acid.

In case you had trouble reading that the first two times:

Higher amounts of CO2 (i.e., carbonic acid) or other acids are required to lower pH because there is more base available to neutralize or buffer the acid.
 
Im not talking about the ammount of co2 sacha, im talking about the ph difference/drop. Please read the thread carefully. Also Tom Barr is quite a trustworthy source for me and many others.

By the way saying it three times doesnt make something true.

its a fact Sacha. Ph drop is independent of kh. Ive added enough info on here to proof this. Do you want me to add Tom Barrs actual words? I will. You are always giving a theoretical answer which is wrong.
Have you even tried this? All I know is that I can drop ph by 1.2 ph units in my tank with a kh of 18/19 without having any problem with fish. this would be impossible if I listen to your theory.

I think you are seing the carbonic equilibrium equation as a black and white thing. We are outside that equilibrium (we add co2)so it doesnt behave the way you think it does and its got constants in it which changes the magnitude of things. I hope you keep reading about this and get to the answer.

i will keep researching so that I can give you a better explanation. But the fat is the fact. After you know something by testing then you will explain it somehow. Yet if you have a theory without proof its just that a theory.
 
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This is why I think ceg should have his say on this because many people just dont get it. I will try my best to get the fact out there. This is a very important question. Why doesnt he answer?

i just read your link Sacha. You dont even seem to understan my question. You dont differentiate ammount of co2 added and the ph drop generated by it. Its different things.

I dont care if people think that I am overthinking this or if I want to discredit ceg (i dont hes helped me a lot). Im really just interested in the truth. This is a very important question. Why? A 1 to 1.2 ph drop is needed in high light tanks so as to suppress algae in some cases. If you think beczuse you have very hard water you need to drop the ph less then you arent in the right track which can lead to problems since there arent easy ways to measure co2.
 
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Ah, I see. You'd rather continue being wrong. That's fine by me, but this thread may as well be locked since you're not paying attention to a single thing anyone says here.

This is my last comment here. My previous post contains all the information you need.
 
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Jose, if you scroll down and read the comments under Clive's article, you see that he did some clarifications in one of the first posts. Hope that helps.
 
Guys no need to get personal come on. Lets be civilyzed shall we. If two people dont agree lets just argument our believes.

Chandler can you post a link I cant find what you mean.
 
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