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Cardinal tetras - More is more? More natural behaviours in larger groups. A sort of experiment unintended.

Dr. White

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2023
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75
Location
Swindon
Just wanted to share some observations as it may be of interest to some.

A few months ago my dozen cardinals were wiped out by - I think - epistylis. Save for three ottos and some amano and cherry shrimp, the tank was left pretty much unoccupied. Last week I picked up 20 cardinals. So this is quite a good but unintentional experiment into how cardinals behave in different sized groups.

When there were only a dozen, they were shy. They would come out into the open but were easily spooked into cover. They never took food from the surface. I remember having to tell visitors that there are fish in there and point out where they were hiding. Presumably two people in the room was too much for them!

Wind it on to the group of 20, which all went in at the same time. They will happily go to the surface for food, they are never spooked by me or visitors. They also started eating immediately. What I really love, is that when the lights dim for dusk (I have a long dusk period, with it ending on a very low setting for a good hour) their behaviour changes. Instead of staying in the open as they do throughout the day, their activity levels massively increase and they begin chasing one another through the plants. It is so cool to watch. I am guessing that they might be jostling for the best spots to spend the night, but I could be wrong. I didn't see this behaviour at all when there were the dozen.

Of course, genetics may play a role in some of the differences in behaviour and I don't know if one batch was wild caught and the other tank bred etc. Though they were from the same shop. But even so, I think it does point to the size of shoal that makes them comfortable. I often see 6 listed as the minimum, but I really think this is far too few.
 
I agree - I have six CTs and regret not having 20+. They are a little sheepish and stand-offish. I am sure if I added some more, that would become a little more bold.

(A lot like my ten 0.8 inch Neon Green Rasbora - who actually don't take any crap from anyone else in the tank - Platy, Sailfin Molly or Guppy!)
 
I agree - I have six CTs and regret not having 20+. They are a little sheepish and stand-offish. I am sure if I added some more, that would become a little more bold.

(A lot like my ten 0.8 inch Neon Green Rasbora - who actually don't take any crap from anyone else in the tank - Platy, Sailfin Molly or Guppy!)
I guess you can't add any more due to those livebearers! I stocked this tank to be single species (cleaning crew aside) initially for aesthetic considerations. It's only a 60L cube, so I'm limited for stock from the get-go. But now I'd do it again, perhaps with a different tetra species, more for the naturalness of the behaviour than any other consideration.
 
Tetras in general should be kept in larger groups... they school when they are threatened - sometimes very tightly, but shoal - most loosely grouping - when they are at comfort with their environment.

How many you need to keep together really depends on the tank size, plant coverage etc. to provide safe areas, but I would say 8-12 is a minimum - more is better. Keeping different tetras together is another strategy that may be fine for smaller groups of each kind as they tend to stick together. For instance my black neons, cardinals and ruby’s are really happy rubbing shoulders - at least so it seems.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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I guess you can't add any more due to those livebearers!
Actually, I am finding my livebearers a very self-absorbed bunch. 😂 The Platy squabble between themselves, the Mollys don't care about anyone else, and the guppies are the same - with only a small interest in the occasional patty. I could add more cardinals tetra but my aquarium is quite active and full. So waiting for nature to take its course before more space is created. 🫣
 
With livebearers that may take a while as they tend to procreate quite prolifically :lol:

Cheers,
Michael
It's a boys-only club for the livebearers. 😀
 
Of course, genetics may play a role in some of the differences in behaviour and I don't know if one batch was wild caught and the other tank bred etc. Though they were from the same shop. But even so, I think it does point to the size of shoal that makes them comfortable. I often see 6 listed as the minimum, but I really think this is far too few.
Yes, I never understood the rationale behind these numbers... 6 might be a meaningful number in say a 30 L planted tank, but 6 in a 300 L tank makes much less sense... Again, in my experience you can mix and match with at least some of the nano tetras of similar temperament and sort of make up for the numbers of individuals ... Black Neons, Cardinals and Red Ruby's are great together but mixing those with say Rummy Nose tetras that tend to be hyper active and easily stressed out especially if not in a larger school is not a good idea.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Yes, I never understood the rationale behind these numbers... 6 might be a meaningful number in say a 30 L planted tank, but 6 in a 300 L tank makes much less sense... Again, in my experience you can mix and match with at least some of the nano tetras of similar temperament and sort of make up for the numbers of individuals ... Black Neons, Cardinals and Red Ruby's are great together but mixing those with say Rummy Nose tetras that tend to be hyper active and easily stressed out especially if not in a larger school is not a good idea.
It is interesting.

As a side point, I think there is something to be said for a little overstocking, or at least to be researched more so we understand the impact. I have around 40 inches of fish in my 25USG/100L aquarium and the most recent addition of the last 10 (Green Neon Rasboras - which are VERY small) has actually made things a little more peaceful - plus the cardinal tetras not huddling all in one space. (They are now exploring in isolation and weaving peacefully throughout the others).
 
It is interesting.

As a side point, I think there is something to be said for a little overstocking, or at least to be researched more so we understand the impact. I have around 40 inches of fish in my 25USG/100L aquarium and the most recent addition of the last 10 (Green Neon Rasboras - which are VERY small) has actually made things a little more peaceful - plus the cardinal tetras not huddling all in one space. (They are now exploring in isolation and weaving peacefully throughout the others).

Using the total length of fish to assess stocking level is another one of those "rules of thumb" that don't carry much water in my mind. Especially for a planted tank... If you have a densely planted 100 L tank with a decent amount of hardscape etc. you're certainly ok putting in 20 cardinals of a total length of +20 inches. On the other hand putting in a pair of Discus or Angle Fish 10 inch each would be problematic. One of my tanks are probably considered moderately stocked with 25-30 tetras a couple of Otto's and countless shrimps, still I can walk up to the tank occasionally and barely see any fish... :lol:

Cheers,
Michael
 
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On the other hand putting in a pair of Discus or Angle Fish 10 inch each would be problematic.
Yep, I totally agree. You have to use your noggin. The average of all my 27 fish is 1.6 inches, with none above 2.5 inches. In my tank, I have to 'think' small in terms of adult fish size.
 
Little update. The chasing I saw turned out to be spawning! I was surprised and had to watch to see many batches of eggs dropped (and eaten) before I was totally sure, as I presumed they would be too immature for it and my set up might not be optimal - hearing that cardinals were hard to breed. Having said that, I have made sure the water is very soft while living in a very hard water area, and the dense plants and lower lighting would have helped. Of course, I have since read that it is raising them that poses the most challenges, and I am not expecting to set up a tank to do that. Was still a lovely surprise though, and suggests they are content in the environs I have taken a lot of time and love to create as best I can.
 
Wow! That is great news! How soft are you making your water?
 
Wow! That is great news! How soft are you making your water?
Indeed, and they'd not been in the aquarium a few weeks when they started it! I am mixing a the tapwater down with RO to around GH 6, KH 2. Which, relatively speaking, for my area, is very soft!

Actually, not mixing down tapwater, adding a little tapwater to RO!
 
Yeah, my water is around 13 - 15 dGH out of the tap - which is not the worst level. But I have taken it down to around 8-9 dGH with the RO mix method.

I can tell you something, the "hardwater" species have never been happier! They seem to become lethargic toward the 15 mark, and much more at home below 10. Go figure?!
 
I wonder whether havituation to people in the retail environment plays a part as well. I've used 3 LFS as well as a mainly online retailer very near me that allows in-person sales 3 days a week. The fish from the busiest store - Fish Planet which is in a very busy part of Finsbury Park - are very bold, settled immediately, and very quick to approach for food. Those from the mainly on-line took longer and the two shops in between were in proportion to their location and footfall (so the second friendliest being from ADC which is still busy but less so than Fish Planet, and the third being The Fish Barn which is a rural location but still always popular whenever I;ve been over). Not great science I know, but this seems to have been true across several species.
 
ianmianmianm's comments are interesting. My experience of Cardinals, which have always been my most numerous livestock, has been that they didn't even turn shy when the group dropped to only 5, although the group started above 12 and it's number dropped over many years.
I have probably bought Cardinals 8 times over 11 years to keep my group going. While 5 is the lowest I let it get to, I've never seen any shyness at any point. Most have been from Wharf Aquatics but I have also bought from Maidenhead Aquatics quite a few times and my latest 6 additions from Wharf a year ago, were wild caught. I saw no major shyness difference with my mixed group of wild and captive although come to think of it, the whole group seem to school a bit more often now than when the group was all captive and they would just loosely shoal. Observations, but could be coincidental and actually relating to other things going on with the tank.

I very recently lost my last glass bloodfin tetra, again a species I have kept since initial tank build 11 years ago (group starting at 6 and reducing over the years). It had been a loner for a few years (it was perfectly happy) but since I lost it, I have noticed the Cardinals (current number 14) do seem to stay lower in the water column, it could be a coincidence but I wonder if it is because the bloodfin that would often swim with the cardinals but mostly higher, has gone. I do have a few marble hatchets occupying the top, so there is a species above them, but the lone bloodfin going may have made the difference, either that or my inability to stop my PH creeping up. Other fish in the tank atm are ottos and 3 x crossocheilus reticulatus FYI.
Tank is a Rio180 and lightly planted.

I will hopefully be changing the layout soon which is stopping me from buying more fish atm but I will be boosting the numbers after that.
 
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