Dwarf Puffer sexing??

[zozo]

I decided to go for a little harem of dwarf puffers.. Bought 3 of them unfortunately one didn't make it and dies 3 days after.. 🙁 Went very quickly from lively little fish nibbling pond snail baby's and 3 hours later it laid dead on the bottom. Th eother 2 are doing great, improved color and explore the tank all day long.



And of what i understand is buying juvenile dwarf puffers is a role with the dice when it comes to sexing them.
I was planning to put a few more in but want to wait till i'm able to sex the 2 i got now. Some say buy the ones with a white belly when young to reduce the chanses of buying males. Maybe i'm color blind i couldn't find a white belly among them. These 2 have a clear yellow belly..

Does anybody know at what age puffers are identifiable as male or female.??

 

[Greenfinger2]

Hi Marcel,

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I1/sexing_puffers/Sexing_The_Dwarf_Puffer.htm

Best info I could find 😉

 

[zozo]

Thanks Roy, great site, that one i did't find (click) during my search.. I knew how to, but never found info at what age it is possible with certain degree of accuracy.
This author says when size is between 0.5" to 1" 🙂 a bit vague, but something.. Mine already are in that size, for now i would say they are female , that's already positive for a start.. But i'll still wait a while and see if they still grow and or may change in body feature.

 

[darren636]

Very cute characters
But also completely psychopathic!

 

[zozo]

Till now i can't say, they ignore everything but themselfs and the snails around them.. Don't look at the shrimps, also got a school of rather atcive and flashy barbs and they both hover dauntless in the middle of them.. I guess they need snails to blow of steam, even don't bother to take the bloodwurms i offer them. 🙂 Got 3 tanks and 1 sump at the time and a 4th tank is comming, so enough snails for a lifetime 😉..

Waiting for the camera's wrist strap to arrive.. I definitely shoot a vid.. 🙂

 

[markk]

Till now i can't say, they ignore everything but themselfs and the snails around them.. Don't look at the shrimps, also got a school of rather atcive and flashy barbs and they both hover dauntless in the middle of them.. I guess they need snails to blow of steam, even don't bother to take the bloodwurms i offer them. 🙂 Got 3 tanks and 1 sump at the time and a 4th tank is comming, so enough snails for a lifetime 😉..

Waiting for the camera's wrist strap to arrive.. I definitely shoot a vid.. 🙂

Zozo

I have a group of 7 - recently moved into a tank of their own! (And much happier there).

I think trying to sex them at below 1inch is going to be tricky. With smaller/younger fish your best bet is to try and guess based on their temperament - in my experience the males are far more aggressive/dominant. Though this is harder in small groups (e.g. 2!) and groups of mixed size.

Mine predominantly eat live food. They're happy munching through a host of tadpole snails but go nuts for daphnia, asellus and scuds. Haven't tried them on white worms etc yet - though when it comes to frozen foods, they won't touch anything other than bloodworm. Not interested in tubifex, mysids, squid etc.

I'm very wary of feeding them too many snails as they generally only bite off the heads - which usually leaves the body to rot in the shell (and there is no cleanup crew in the new tank - they just get eaten!). I'm going to experiment with other smaller, soft shelled snail species to see if they'll eat them whole.

Cheers
Mark

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

Thanks for the info Mark.. 🙂 So it stays a role with the dice, if not adults are offered in the lfs.

I did set up the tank with puffers on my mind.. To provide hidding places and areas where they could go and get out of sight to avoid eachother if necessary. Also provided the tank with an oversized sump filter with a moving bed filter compartment, these filters seem to be the best amonia and nitrite converters around producing nitrrates. This all in preperation of the mess they can make.. 🙂 The levels still stay in acceptable range..

I planned to put 5 together and first wanted to start out with 3 and wait till i can determine their sex. Unfortunately one didn't get through the first week and only got 2 left..The only differnce i can see in them for now is one has a very round belly and the other is more flat, no other markings yet to show. But they love to stay together, like best friends..

Mine do the same ignore all frozen food but bloodwurm.. Only the 2 of them already eradicated a lot of young snails within 2 weeks.. I had to many to count of them on the glass and now i have to look hard to find some in the plants. But still young snails to find and till now they leave the bigger ones alone. I have some kind of pond snails which came with the plants. I think they are pefect, because they multiply like crazy, in the 2 months the tank cycled they went from a few to over a hundred. I got relative soft water and in the other tanks i see them having a hard time to get fully grown and the soft acidic water keeps the numbers down. There fore did put a calcite rock in the puffer tank especialy for the snails, so they live longer, have more and can multiply in larger numbers, it seems to work.

I see the puffers not killing snails al day long and also take stuff from the substrate they seem to eat, it's like they might eat what they killed before. Also have a school of barbs i see nibbling on baby snails now and then, they might cleanup the puffers spoils.. It looks like i got a nice round cycle going for now, but all is still just a few months running, it's wait and see how it keeps up. 🙂

 

[markk]

I'd be interested to hear how you get on - sounds like we have the same aim - breed some puffers🙂

Something else I forgot to mention that I've noticed now my puffers are in their new tank. When they're asleep/settling down - they seem to attach/stick themselves to a flat surface - even vertical surfaces such as tank sides and filter tube. Have you noticed this? I can't find much online about it (a couple of references to big marine puffers).

I don't think I saw it before as in the larger, heavier planted tank they tended to disappear for the night. A bit more obvious in the newly planted low tech...

Cheers
Mark

 

[zozo]

I'll let you know when the time comes.. 🙂 Breeding them is not particular my aim, but if they do, my aim would be accomplished in giving them excactly what they need and of course would be a the cherry on top.. My aim of sexing them is to reduce the risk having to many if not only males together. So if the 2 i have apaear to be(come) male i will definitely not buy any others before i know i get what they need. 3 females and find me a breeder who can provide me with that even if i have to travel half a day for it. 🙂

Not yet seen them sticking to anything and do not realy have an idea what you mean by that. With what or how would they do that, can you elaborate on that?

As for now i only got 2 and they decided that the crypt in the left corner is their home base.. 1 is a little timide and is most of the day safely at home, doesn't go much out own it's own. The other is more bold and explores the whole tank, once in a while and sometimes they go togehter for chasing snails..

 

[markk]

Not yet seen them sticking to anything and do not realy have an idea what you mean by that. With what or how would they do that, can you elaborate on that?

The closest thing that springs to mind the is the lumpsucker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpsucker

They seem to secrete something from the 'stomach' area that attaches them lightly to the surface. I quite often see the smaller ones swimming around with some substrate attached to them first thing in the morning.

As for now i only got 2 and they decided that the crypt in the left corner is their home base.. 1 is a little timide and is most of the day safely at home, doesn't go much out own it's own. The other is more bold and explores the whole tank, once in a while and sometimes they go togehter for chasing snails..

Do you have some floaters in the tank? They definitely seem to appreciate them. The tank they were in previously has some Hydrocotyle leucocephala that I usually train horizontally. The puffers would regularly hide under the leaves (particularly when the lights were at their max) and move from under one leave to the next - almost like someone keeping out of the rain🙂

Regards
Mark

 

[zozo]

Mark thank you, Lumpsucker, very intresting i didn't know that one, never heard of it before... Yet didn't see anyting sticking to them or them sticking to something.. Again something to look out for and wonder about and study more closely. Man you got to love this hobby and the wonders it can bring.. 🙂 Nice word also..

Yes i have some floaters, at he time only salvinia.. But the tank is still young little over 10 weeks now and still growing in. I'm planning another floater, i tried Eichornia but that's a plant not suitable for this setup and took it out again and reserved for the pond.. I like to replace it with a small Nelumbo bowl cultivar (indian lotus), no idea how this will work out in a tank, just have to try, if not i go back to my good old dwarfed water lily. Also have the driftwood rather elevated and atached some small and large java ferns to it, close to the surface, they also will canopy the surface area later on, some of them might just grow on emersed and act partialy as floater. Well that is the plan, it's still wait and see.

They often dwell close to the surface in the java ferns looking for snacks, but actualy find them exploring all over the tank in the caves and cracks as well close to the substrate. I'm realy amazed about the speed they can make with there tiny clumsy looking bodies and even more tiny fins..

I still have the impression i'm dealing with 2 females, i hope it isn't just wishfull thinking.. 🙂 That would be nice and far easier, buy one more and wait again till i can sex it.. 🙂

 

[zozo]

Very cute characters
But also completely psychopathic!

I believe i've seen today what you mean.. 😱 Witnessed my first Puffer Baiting, man they can put up a fight! And realy biting eachother in the butt. I could laugh after i saw none of them was wounded, at least it didn't show, not even their pride was. But i saw them first go into intimidation, spreading fins, coloring and puffing up, circling around eachother.. I thought Aww!! look they are loving eachother and mating, but then attack!! All of a sudden i see one get bitten, shoot away like a bullit with the other still attached to it's behind and didn't let go till half way the tank. The one bitten hid away in it's corner for 5 minutes, came out again and then they swam brotherly around like nothing happened. It's like they fight for fun. What a show. 🙄

Now i suspect they are boys.. Or do girls do that too?? Or do girls do that to cheeky boys??

I'll keep the camera ready, see if i can get it on video if it happens again. Little vigorous pitbulls..

 

[darren636]

I saw a puffer sneak up behind a bigger puffer, bite him and shake it like a dog with a chew toy
Scary.

 

[zozo]

It kinda is scary.. It was an hour after feeding time.. Blood wurm, like it gives them a taste of blood and get agresive?? Never seen this before. The one that did bite actualy looks rather shy and sits in it's corner all day, doesn't come out often. This was far from shy.. 🙂

 

[Mortis]

I think both the ones you have are female. From what research I remember from when I had a few is that the males tend to have larger black patches and the black has a bit of iridescent/metallic shine to them while females have smaller black spots that are dull matte black

 

[zozo]

Well Morris thanks, i hope you are right.. 🙂 Myself i still not 100% confinced they are.. But they are steadely growing strong and healthy.. At the time they have both developed their own territory and oftenly are in dispute about it.. One is developing a darker color than the other.. They are very active and hard to get clearly in focus with that size.

This is the darker one, i wasn't sure but one day it was getting very excited and i thought i saw the chest stripe colorig up, which should be distinct male feature. But as said they are constantly on the move and when i come close rather show me their back then front for a long time. And it could be i'm mistaken about the chest stripe only thought i saw it once, for the rest of the time it's not realy there, only a bit under their chin, which have both.


This is the same one from the side, i have no idea if i see wrinkles behind the eyes, looks a bit like it. Which also should be male feature.
But this one has a much fatter belly than the other..


This is the other one, lighter in color.. Not yet got better pictures. This one is realy shy and immediately moves away from the camera.
For now i managed only to make rather unclear tele shots.. This kinda looks more female to me..


🙂 Still very unclear to me..

This one is just an aw!? picture.. Sorry it's unclear again.. Looks like little bird if you paint little paws to it.. 🙄 And also like i see a chest stripe developping still far away..

 

[zozo]

Here is the chest stripe 🙂, this seems to be exclusively male patern.. So i definitively got one male. It's not always show, only when excited for some reason.
Today i noticed this is the one with the lighter color in the above pictures. It constantly dives into the back corner plants when i come with the camera. That is his home base..

But it showing realy good today.

🙂

The other darker one with the more rounder belly could be a girl. Maybe.

 

[alto]

Is he really shy or just subdominant - if you're up to some fish experiments, remove the more "social" puffer for a couple days (if you have an alternate suitable tank) & then see how shy guy's behaviour changes ... if he's suddenly out & about, I'd suspect both are males (unless females are likely to be the dominant/territorial fish)

Of course just to be contrary, most dominant blue ram I had was a female - she got her own fiefdom 😀 & the other rams were so much happier 🙂

I'm enjoying this Puffer Journal!

 

[zozo]

Hi Alto, thanks for that input, i could seperate them without problems, got 3 tanks total. But shy or subdominant, isn't yet not clear to me.. It's actualy just me, when i approach the tank it dives immediately into its corner. While the other which doesn't yet show any clear male sex markers, and could be female immediately comes towards me to see what i'm up to. But if i be very still or move away from the tank the other (male) comes out again..

It funny to see how they do, one has the left side of the tank as it's territory and the other the right, and there is a piece of wood about in the miiddle which seems to be the boundry. And it constantly goed forth and back trying to invade eachothers ground.. As soon as one approaches that boundry area the other comes and stands guard like saying "Your about trespassing" and than the intimidation starts, staring eachother down and circling attacking and chassing. Than the tresspasser dicedes to go and gets chased out. But when he's back on his ground he chases the other back. And constantly they try to sneak in into eachothers space and back stab. Realy low to the substrate looking around the corner of a piece of wood to see and sneek in. But the other already shot it long before and waits behind another piece of wood to pop up in it's way and the game starts over. SO towards eachother their is no real sub or super dominants. It's equal measures. Aand this goes on for a while till they decide to break up and saty an hour on it's own ground or sometimes even together.

I they realy start a fight the barbs intervene and realy bumb into to them to break the fight.. The barbs not territorial but also males fight eachother and other barbs bumb into that fight as well to break it up. Those barbs very much are aware and react to the puffers, but the puffers don't give a damn about the barbs they ignore them and only have eyes for eachother..

It's rather a hillarious combination i made with those 2 spieces together.. Goes very well.. 🙂 Very much fun with watching it. There also is a daily hour of total tranquility and then every fish is just minding it's own thing grazing around a bit. And then a few get an atitude again and all gather to rumble. Very active tank i got now. Not sure what there to add, not suitable for little rasboras thats obvious. Glad i waited.. 🙂

Here in that earthworm video i posted, you can see how it goes about. ANd how those little puffers constantly eyballing only eachother. Even during feeding time, one eye on the worm the other eye on the competiotion. 🙄

 

[zozo]

Intresting site, with precise info and a very well and complete explained breeding report.
http://www.zwergkugelfisch.de/index_eng.html

Regarding his info it looks like i'm lucky and have a couple of different sex. Sexing should generaly become possible after 12 weeks.. Males seem to be shy and domestic only come out of their territory to feed or if food is presented. Females seem to be bit bigger and rounder, more outgoing and constantly on the look for food and more easily trained to eat offered food.

Dominant males show the chest stripe (only when in the mood).. My striped puffer does and indeed mostly is in it's territory and rather shy, doesn't accept food as readily as the other is rather a picky eater. The other, indeed is more outgoing is following me and eats offered food even out of the tweezers.

Courtship seems to look more like fighting, described the way i witnesed it. Circling and chassing eachother and even fighting and biting.. Not excactly what i call love, but that's the puffer way.

For now it it looks like boy and girl..

Also seems that new born puffers keep schooling till they reach sexual maturity, then split up and live a solitary life. New born puffers seem to have no gender. The gender gene becomes active in a later stage. In this young scholing periode the ones that develop male gender first (may occur simultaneously for few) start secreting a hormone to trigger it's siblings to become female. So depending on the goal, separating juvenile puffers before gender is geneticaly established might work counter productive.