I just cant keep plants healthy!

[Bradders]

Firstly, the required information:

1. Size of tank - 100L
2. Age of the system approximately - 18 Months
3. Tap water parameters - PH:7.9 / KH: 8-9 / GH: 10-11 / Nitrate: 10PPM. Temperature around 23 degrees.
4. Filtration and Media - Biomaster 350, all sponge at 20/30PPI. Bladed powerhead for flow.
5. Lighting and duration - Chihiros WRGB II Pro LED, around 20% to 30%, 6 -8 hours
6. Substrate - Gravel (inert)
7. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing. CO2 Injection, to around 15PPM based on dKH and PH monitoring
8. Drop Checker. Using PH Meter based on dKH and getting to 15PPM
9. Fertilizers used + Ratios - TNC Complete, 10ml-15ml per 100L per week. (I have also tried APT Zero at instruction levels)
10. Water change regime and composition - Weekly, 40%
11. Plant list + Invitro/Emersed - Mixed, Anubias Nana Bonsai, Bucephalandra Theia Green, Microsorum Pteropus Java Fern etc. All are classified as Easy. All are attached to plants or rocks.
12. Inhabitants - livebearers, Rasboras and Tetra - well stocked.

The problem

Fish, I am OK with. Damn, things are swimming around like they are on a luxury holiday in Bali. But I am ashamed to say that I cannot keep a plant for love or money - not one. I am obviously doing something very, very wrong. And it's time to call in people more gifted than I. In summary, these are my observations (in conjunction with the pictures below).

1. Arrive from Aquarium Gardens healthy, but always deteriorate (regaldess of species) and continue to deteriorate over lengths of time. Never seem to recover.
2. Leaves exhibit yellowing (rather than remaining lush green) and inherently get some filament-type algae.
3. Black patches on some of the leaves, if not, they just looked mottled all over. I guess the black patches are it dying, but not sure why - which is why I am here.
4. New growth is limited. Even if older leaves are dying and removed, the new growth does not show any improvement.

There is not one healthy lush plant - never had a healthy lush plant that persisted and cannot get them to look anywhere near what I see on this beautiful forum. With CO2, or without CO2.

Does anyone know what approach I should take to get this into order? Or am I doomed just to be 'The Plamt Killer of Essex'? 😱

The pictures

 

[martinjcxn]

Ah. I’ve been on this ride and it’s frustrating!

Epiphytes always tend to have some level of melt when they arrive in your tank but will bounce back.

Yellowing suggests iron deficiency, especially if you are fertilising and nitrates are present in the water column.

Often, we assume that the complete fertilisers are just that - complete, but forget about the less talked about nutrients and minerals like iron, magnesium etc. I’ve had a similar battle with my AR mini and a few other plants.

If iron dosing doesn’t help consider upping your light just a tad, but I would bet on iron deficiency.


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[Bradders]

Thanks for the words of encouragement @martinjcxn - it's needed at the moment!

My water report says (well, suggests!) there is some iron in my water. And I am dosiing TNC. Could this still be a problem even though the iron is present?

 

[Bradders]

O, just noticed, its in ug/l with is only 0.005mg/l. That a problem I guess?

 

[ElleDee]

The iron in your tap is unlikely to be plant available, but your frogbit looks beautiful. If you were running short on iron the new leaves would be super pale.

Can we get a full tank shot? If the pictures you've captured show the worst of it, I wouldn't take up the mantle of plant killer just yet. It's not ideal and I'd be miffed too in your situation, but it also doesn't look that bad. My feeling is your balance is off, but not by too much.

Are you removing the rattiest leaves? That could help trigger new growth. And did you see a difference between the apt 0 and what you are doing now?

Your plants are all easy, but very slow growing. I'd either give them lean conditions and low light or I'd add a weedy plant or six, or let the frogbit nearly cover the top.

 

[martinjcxn]

Iron deficiency isn’t an easy thing to diagnose well. For me dosing iron is usually a last resort intervention if I’m doing all the other things well and still having issues. I often refer to 2hr aquarist for ideas: Does my plant have a nutrient deficiency?

[mention]ElleDee [/mention] is correct about the iron out of your tap, and the observation on the frogbit is also apt. Although you may find that if there is limited iron available that the frogbit monopolises it due to its faster growth rates relative to anubias.

A tank pic would definitely help though.


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[Bradders]

Are you removing the rattiest leaves? That could help trigger new growth. And did you see a difference between the apt 0 and what you are doing now?

Hello @ElleDee, I have tried a two-month period with APT0 and also the same with TNC Complete. I just can't seem to get that 'healthy and lush' look.

Here is a picture of the entire tank. Due to the lighting, I can't get a decent one, so hopefully, this is enough to give you an impression. I dont think the plants are looking like they are are 'thriving' t all. Not one of them! (Again!)

 

[Andy Pierce]

Frogbit looks good. How long do you wait before you give up on the plants? Depending on setup the transition from emersed to submersed can take a frustratingly long time... like 2-3 months in some cases. I suspect you just want too badly. 😀

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

O, just noticed, its in ug/l with is only 0.005mg/l.

There wasn't even that much iron. That is the <"limit of detection">, so it just means that the maximum value was less than 0.52 ug / l or 5.2 x 10-9 g / L (Fe).

but your frogbit looks beautiful. If you were running short on iron the new leaves would be super pale.

@ElleDee is right.

Your plants are all easy, but very slow growing. I'd either give them lean conditions and low light or I'd add a weedy plant or six, or let the frogbit nearly cover the top.

and again.

How long do you wait before you give up on the plants? Depending on setup the transition from emersed to submersed can take a frustratingly long time... like 2-3 months in some cases. I suspect you just want too badly.

Same for me.

Have a look at @G H Nelson 's <"Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!"> I think it might help you at the moment. I like <"Ceratopteris and Ceratophyllum"> as my "stems", but any fast growing plant will do.

cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

Thanks @Andy Pierce, @dw1305 and @ElleDee. I appreciate the advice. As you can see, I am not aquascaping here, I just want to learn about keeping plants alive first!

So what I am hearing here is this - correct me if I am wrong......

• The frogbit looks good, so everything is fine at a fundamental level at this stage.
• The plants (with algae, yellowing, and not looking great after a few weeks) are to be expected. Be VERY patient!
• The approach now is to keep everything stable (water parameters, CO2, water changes, etc). Also, add some stem plants, as suggested by Darrel.
• Remove dead leaves (or leaves overwhelmed with Algae) whilst I wait this out. And be VERY patient (to the tune of many weeks).

Have I got that about right?

 

[John Troy]

Hi all,

There wasn't even that much iron. That is the <"limit of detection">, so it just means that the maximum value was less than 0.52 ug / l or 5.2 x 10-9 g / L (Fe).

@ElleDee is right.

and again.

Same for me.

Have a look at @G H Nelson 's <"Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!"> I think it might help you at the moment. I like <"Ceratopteris and Ceratophyllum"> as my "stems", but any fast growing plant will do.

cheers Darrel

I'm just curious, how does adding stem plants help in this case? Given it's most likely there's a deficiency wouldn't this just mean the fast plants out-compete the slow growers making growth worse? From the full tank shot it doesn't seem like there's that much algae.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm just curious, how does adding stem plants help in this case?

They are just plants that are going to grow more quickly than the Anubias and Java Fern.

Given it's most likely there's a deficiency

The Frogbit colour would suggest there probably isn't any nutrient deficiency, but floating plants have access to atmospheric CO2 and first dibs on the light. Stems won't have those advantages.

wouldn't this just mean the fast plants out-compete the slow growers making growth worse? From the full tank shot it doesn't seem like there's that much algae.

Both true, but once @Bradders has some plant growth it should allow him to tweak light, nutrients etc.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

I am going to go for the below as per Stem plant suggestion by @dw1305. My question is, I only have gravel as a substrate. Is that going to be another problem in the mix?

Ceratopteris Siliquosa AKA Water Sprite

Ceratopteris Thalicroides (commonly known as Water Sprite or Indian Fern) is an aquatic water fern that grows fast and can help supress algae by

www.aquariumgardens.co.uk

 

[ElleDee]

I'm just curious, how does adding stem plants help in this case? Given it's most likely there's a deficiency wouldn't this just mean the fast plants out-compete the slow growers making growth worse? From the full tank shot it doesn't seem like there's that much algae.

I don't think it's likely there's a deficiency at all. A deficiency of what? The tank is getting a complete fertilizer weekly, the nutrient demand from those plants is so low, and the frogbit looks great. If there was a serious nutrient problem you'd see it in the floating plants first.

Having all slow growing plants, even easy ones, can be a bit of a liability in higher energy systems because they even though they don't need much in the way of light or nutrients, they aren't good at resisting algae infestation. More algae leads to even slower growth, which leads to more algae, and pretty soon your easy plants look rough. They tend to be hard to actually kill, but it's unsightly. So your options are to add plants that grow fast enough to suppress the algae in the tank, or to lower the energy of the tank to the point where algae is inhibited but not the plants, like by signifcantly reducing the light. Once the algae isn't a problem, plant growth and appearance will improve as you remove the damaged leaves and they are replaced by healthy ones. The stem plants don't inhibit the slow growers because the algae suppression is much more valuable than the loss of nutrients and light. It's really had to underestimate what these particular plants need to survive - I once kept java ferns in a plastic tub of water under a chair in my dining room for more than a year. They hardly grew, but had no algae. I wouldn't go that far with anubias or buce, but they are just fine in the shadows.

@Bradders The plan sounds good. Gravel should be fine for water sprite.

 

[Cazza]

Very similar to my Java ferns. Doing slightly better with more regular dosing of the TNC Complete alternative recipe, still not amazing though. I've had much better success with two different types of Bolbitis and some Buce (just flowered!). A lot of trial and error in my tank- some supposedly easy stems have been poor, whereas some more tricky plants have run wild. Also, my Frogbit is like yours and looks like it wants for nothing!

 

[Bradders]

Thanks everyone for the advice and help. Onwards and upwards!

 

[G H Nelson]

1. Size of tank - 100L
2. Age of the system approximately - 18 Months
3. Tap water parameters - PH:7.9 / KH: 8-9 / GH: 10-11 / Nitrate: 10PPM. Temperature around 23 degrees.
4. Filtration and Media - Biomaster 350, all sponge at 20/30PPI. Bladed powerhead for flow.
5. Lighting and duration - Chihiros WRGB II Pro LED, around 20% to 30%, 6 -8 hours
6. Substrate - Gravel (inert)
7. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing. CO2 Injection, to around 15PPM based on dKH and PH monitoring
8. Drop Checker. Using PH Meter based on dKH and getting to 15PPM
9. Fertilizers used + Ratios - TNC Complete, 10ml-15ml per 100L per week. (I have also tried APT Zero at instruction levels)
10. Water change regime and composition - Weekly, 40%
11. Plant list + Invitro/Emersed - Mixed, Anubias Nana Bonsai, Bucephalandra Theia Green, Microsorum Pteropus Java Fern etc. All are classified as Easy. All are attached to plants or rocks.
12. Inhabitants - livebearers, Rasboras and Tetra - well stocked.


@Bradders thanks for the detailed information🙂
@3 Increase Nitrate to 20/30ppm
@7. I would raise the Co2 to 30ppm.....do this over several days!
@8. Purchase a drop checker, it will give you a visual of what CO2 is in the water column/aquarium.
@9. Triple dose TNC Complete per 100l per week.
@11. Epiphytes appreciate decent flow around their rhizomes therefore try to direct the powerhead into those areas.

Final thoughts on Java Fern, they do like extra Potassium.

 

[Bradders]

And thank you, Mr Nelson!!

 

[Aqua sobriquet]

Maybe just try some easy to grow plants? I have a sand substrate and don’t use CO2 but my plants grow really well. I just have two or three of the easy to grow ones from *Tropica, plus lots of Moss.

* I won’t buy anything else as I’ve had problems with plants from the LFS.

 

[Bradders]

Maybe just try some easy to grow plants? I have a sand substrate and don’t use CO2 but my plants grow really well. I just have two or three of the easy to grow ones from *Tropica, plus lots of Moss.

That gives me some hope! Love to see a picture or two if you don't mind @Aqua sobriquet.