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Inject the maximum quantity of CO2

eminor

eminor

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5 Feb 2021
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Location
France
Hello, i have another tank, no livestock in there, will the bacteria survive if i put maximum amount of co2 ?

btw, still there is always physics in this, what is the maximum amount of co2 there can be in water ? thx

it's just an experiment i want to do, i think it's better to ask some advice first
 
It is not always easy to maintain 30ppm and trying to keep 40ppm might be a real challenge.
It will depend on tank size and shape and if there is a cover glass fitted or if the tank has an open top or how much surface movement there is etc……
I have tried to keep a yellow drop checker in a 200lt tank with an open top but I could not get that colour with the equipment I had .
 
eminor said:
will the bacteria survive if i put maximum amount of co2
Click to expand...
Short answer is yes... to some extent.

Long winded answer: In nature ph levels drop far below what normal folks would be able to attain consistently by injecting C02.
phco2flux.jpg

Studies on this subject suggest nitrifying bacteria will adapt and survive at extremely low ph levels.

"There is no evidence for either the conducive microenvironment hypothesis or the common existence of specific groups of acid-tolerant nitrifying bacteria. Instead, physiological adaptations to low pH could be shown for various AOB and NOB."

Above quote from this article:

Nitrification in a Biofilm at Low pH Values: Role of In Situ Microenvironments and Acid Tolerance - PMC

The sensitivity of nitrifying bacteria to acidic conditions is a well-known phenomenon and generally attributed to the lack and/or toxicity of substrates (NH3 and HNO2) with decreasing pHs. In contrast, we observed strong nitrification at a pH ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Circumstantial evidence suggests lots of people run insane amounts of co2 and their tanks don't.... erm CRASH.

My honest opinion.. unless you're able to manage a constant ph of 3~4 then I'd guess the bacteria in your tank will be fine 🙂
 
damn thanks guys, i'll give it a try, i'll update the topic, hope it won't crash
 
foxfish said:
It is not always easy to maintain 30ppm and trying to keep 40ppm might be a real challenge.
It will depend on tank size and shape and if there is a cover glass fitted or if the tank has an open top or how much surface movement there is etc……
I have tried to keep a yellow drop checker in a 200lt tank with an open top but I could not get that colour with the equipment I had .
Click to expand...
it will be easier with a 20 gallons tank, the tank have co2 reactor, it's really easy to get a constant yellow drop. the more area, the more gaseous exchange i think so yes would be too challenging in a big tank
 
Hi all,
John q said:
There is no evidence for either the conducive microenvironment hypothesis or the common existence of specific groups of acid-tolerant nitrifying bacteria. Instead, physiological adaptations to low pH could be shown for various AOB and NOB."
Click to expand...
I'd guess that you get more nitrification at alkaline pH, but also that pH is much less relevant to nitrification than we used to think.

There are some updated paper that deal specifically with Recirculating Aquarium System (RAS) filters: Heise, J., Müller, H., Probst, A.J. and Meckenstock, R.U., (2021). <"Ammonium removal in aquaponics indicates participation of comammox Nitrospira">. Current microbiology, 78(3), pp.894-903.
&
Derikvand, P., Sauter, B. and Stein, L.Y., (2021). <"Development of an aquaponics microbial inoculum for efficient nitrification at acidic pH">. Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology, 105:18, pp.7009-7021., but I don't have access to full-text of that one.

There are also plenty of papers about Ammonia Oxidising Archaea, and they definitely can function effectively at acidic pH levels.
Bartelme, R.P., Smith, M.C., Sepulveda-Villet, O.J. and Newton, R.J., (2019). "Component microenvironments and system biogeography structure microorganism distributions in recirculating aquaculture and aquaponic systems". Msphere, 4(4).

cheers Darrel
 
once you start the experiment, pls post regular photos so that we can see the effects on plant growth/form.
though frankly, if more CO2 just makes plants grow faster - this just adds to the amount of time you have to do maintenance/trimming/cleaning - I'm at the stage where I am happy with healthy plants - I don't need fast growth as I'm not farming plants for sale 🙂
 
My main Qanvee diffuser is about 1.6 bubbles per second.

I was trying to count the number of bubbles in Hanuman's to try to do a comparison but even a reduced speed I found it hard to count, my guess is that its about 20bps?
 
I don't bother counting since bubbles/s is really not a good way to appreciate CO2. The size of those bubbles would probably be 2 to 3 times the size of bubbles coming from a standard bubble counter because I am using a 6mm tube. I slowed down the video and counted somewhere around ~15b/s. This would effectively mean ~ 30/40 bubbles per second in a standard bubble counter.
 
Think you will need a CO2 reactor and going for twin reactors/solenoids/needle valves and advanced timing device like a PLC would give you the best chance of maxing [CO2] and a good supply of CO2. The equipment is what I had and was able to get a 1.4pH drop in less than 30 mins with a 500l lidded tank and keep it stable from lights on till CO2 off. The DC was was light yellow going clear. That was the max I could take it due to livestock. I wasn't able to feed my fish till CO2 was off as the excitement of feeding had a few fish going belly up for a short while. BPS was pretty insane. I use to go through a 6.5Kg CO2 cylinder every 30 days. Never tried to see what the Max [CO2] I could get

I use to adjust the injection rate by adjusting the working pressure so a decent duel stage reg would be my advise with Swagelok needle valves (the later I didn't have but plan to get some for next tank)

I hope you have deep pockets as it would be cheap.

I would stay away from rocks with CaCO3 in them as if you trying to max [CO2] they may not last very long as the lower the pH the higher the solubility of CaCO3 and doing pH profiles the baseline/target pH will change pretty quick from WC in a couple of days (@Wookii had this issue when using remineralised RO water)

Another option is to use 'hard' or well remineralised RO water which will increase the pH to start off with, although most folk prefer soft water for their tanks and some plants can be harder for 'some' of us to grow with hard water.

CO2 used Database may be helpful also 😉
 
Zeus. said:
Think you will need a CO2 reactor and going for twin reactors/solenoids/needle valves and advanced timing device like a PLC would give you the best chance of maxing [CO2] and a good supply of CO2. The equipment is what I had and was able to get a 1.4pH drop in less than 30 mins with a 500l lidded tank and keep it stable from lights on till CO2 off. The DC was was light yellow going clear. That was the max I could take it due to livestock. I wasn't able to feed my fish till CO2 was off as the excitement of feeding had a few fish going belly up for a short while. BPS was pretty insane. I use to go through a 6.5Kg CO2 cylinder every 30 days. Never tried to see what the Max [CO2] I could get

I use to adjust the injection rate by adjusting the working pressure so a decent duel stage reg would be my advise with Swagelok needle valves (the later I didn't have but plan to get some for next tank)

I hope you have deep pockets as it would be cheap.

I would stay away from rocks with CaCO3 in them as if you trying to max [CO2] they may not last very long as the lower the pH the higher the solubility of CaCO3 and doing pH profiles the baseline/target pH will change pretty quick from WC in a couple of days (@Wookii had this issue when using remineralised RO water)

Another option is to use 'hard' or well remineralised RO water which will increase the pH to start off with, although most folk prefer soft water for their tanks and some plants can be harder for 'some' of us to grow with hard water.

CO2 used Database may be helpful also 😉
Click to expand...

Thanks, damn that some massive injection haha, i just have active soil and plant in there, i use rain water mixed with tap water, so i get a KH of 6-7 due to the hard water.

i have a question if i might, in one of my tank, the drop checker is green/yellow at start, then yellow, it takes the night to get back to greenish, why do we need to let the co2 for the rest of the photoperiod if there is planty co2 in the water left ? what if i shut down when the drop get yellow ? thx ( that question is nothing about maxing out co2, just in regular setup)
 
John q said:
Long winded answer: In nature ph levels drop far below what normal folks would be able to attain consistently by injecting C02.
phco2flux.jpg


Studies on this subject suggest nitrifying bacteria will adapt and survive at extremely low ph levels.
Click to expand...
Hi @John q
Would you happen to know the link of the paper where this table is from?

eminor said:
i have a question if i might, in one of my tank, the drop checker is green/yellow at start, then yellow, it takes the night to get back to greenish, why do we need to let the co2 for the rest of the photoperiod if there is planty co2 in the water left ? what if i shut down when the drop get yellow ? thx
Click to expand...
Hi @eminor
Because of the delay. A drop checker has several hours delay so even if it's yellow it doesn't mean the water is still saturated by CO2.
 
aquanoobie said:
Hi @John q
would you happen to know the link of the paper where this table is from?
Click to expand...

Hi, the table is on p95 of Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (2nd edition)

I'm not entirely sure if it's taken from a scientific paper, a seminar or a book, here's what she references the table to.

Allen, H.L. 1972. Phytoplankton photosynthesis, micro-nutrient interaction and inorganic carbon availability in a soft water Vermont Lake.
In Linkens GE (Ed) Nutrients and eutrophication: The limiting nutrient controversy. Special Symposium, Amer. Soc. Liminol. Oceanogr. 1:63-83
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,

I've referenced <"Star Lake"> more than once, but we have a <"couple of threads"> that link into more <"recent scientific papers">.

cheers Darrel
Click to expand...
Yes, to be honest I copied your quotation of the Allen H paper from an old post of yours on pleco planet, reason... because I couldn't be bothered typing the reference out.

Would be great if someone who had access to the original article, book , reference.? Could post it in this thread.
I'm good at searching however this article is proving evasive to me.
 
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