Medication advice Please.

[Geraint]

I dont know. I feed the fish Topical flakes, King British Catfish pellets, King British Algae Wafers, New Life Spectrum Thera +A Regular Formula (with added Garlic), Freeze dried Daphnia + Tubifex Worms, and Frozen Bloodworms/Daphnia/Copepods...I'll chuck a few peas and a slice of cucumber in now and then.

I didn't think substrate detritus was a big issue in a planted tank. Plants use it as fertalizer? I dont activly look to clean it up anymore, but there's never much of it anyway. just bits around the stem plants at the back of the tank.

The slight red along the fin bones was there before the medication.
My reasoning so far is that the pleco somehow became stressed (aggression with other pleco/eating too much meat?waterquality) and aquaired external and internal infections. improper medication treatemnt led to the lowering of the imune system of my initial pleco along with all the other scaless fish resulting in the rest of the fish catching the same internal infections and dying.
So.... to stop this happening again:
- I'll make alot mroe hiding places for future pleco's. and only have one per tank?
- Future pleco's to be fed more vegitable's (I'm not convinced this was the issue, but cant say for certain)
- replace my internal filter with one that can hold more surface area and one that has a higher flow rate, which might improve water quality.
- medicate at 1/4 doseages and increase to 1/2, not mixing medication.
- Add a UV steriliser to keep water column bacteria in check, to reduc the risk of infection should the fish become stressed. and continue with weekly 25% water changes?
- Tap water report should arrive tomorrow, so I'll see where i stand there.

I've been reading on U.V sterilises. Many posts are suggesting that that regular water changes can have the same result.
Not sure if my logic is correct, but surely a 25% water change will only dilute bacterial counts by 25%, once a week. whereas a U.V steriliser running constantly is going to have a similar effect to the constant drip water change system (as far as water column bacteria numbers are concerned), but at a higher rate? If I assume that 0.5% of the bacteria gets killed by the U.V sterilise every hour (I've picked that number out of nowhere, but seems reasonably conservative if the its pumping 400l/h hour on a 200l tank?), then within a week about 60% of the original bacteria that was there has been sterilised.

 

[Geraint]

Water report came through... but means nothing to me.

 

[alto]

Hi Geraint
hope your tank is doing better now.
I don't see anything in the water report that would cause concern, though it doesn't rule out any local service that may've upset water conditions.

 

[Geraint]

The tank is not much better. nothing has died in a while, but there's obviously a problem.

All my plants began to melt away (turn brown and die). my tank became a cloudy brown colour. I guessed that this was becasue my filter couldn't cope with the amount of decaying plant matter, therefore a bacterial bloom in the water colum errupted. Water changes every day, along with picking out the dead leaves didn't help, so I decided to pull all the plants out (All were dying quicker than i could handle). The tank is currently a bed of sand, with a bit of wood and a small amount of surface plants that arn't growing.

Daily water changes (25%) have comntinued, but the tank is still cloudy. I have a 36w UV steriliser in place, but I dont want to switch it on until the tank becomes clear on ts own (i think the bacteria causing the cloudy water is a good thing for the tank until the filter catches up)

I dont know...
Thanks for the help anyway.

 

[sciencefiction]

Sorry to hear about your fish. It's upsetting when that happens.

I will be buying a U.V steriliser. I'm reading up on them and trying to figure out which one is best for my tank

I U.V steriliser, with the correct size and flow for the tank and not part of a filter helps a lot with preventing diseases and even helps a diseased fish fight off infections.

I already do at least a 25% water change at least once a week, sometimes twice depending on how much time i find myself with.
I might replace my internal filter with somthing more effective. I need to look nto it.

More effective filtration and more water changes are always best. And more water changes especially now that the fish needed it to recover.

I changed the substrate on over half the tank to a darker type of playsand. the sand was washed befre putting it in, but the process might have stressed the fish a little. although they didn't look unhappy.

Possibly an ammonia spike caused your problem. If the pleco's fin's rotted in a very short period of time as in a couple of days, it's ammonia. It happened to me once. I woke up with a bunch of corys with rotting fish after I thoroughly washed the filters a day or two prior. Ammonia was through the roof. Changing the substrate can cause a spike too more often than not. All I did was put the fish in another stable tank and they all recovered and are still alive 4 years after. But if I left them one more day in there, who knows...Also, once subjected to bad conditions, fish tend to succumb to proper diseases eventually a month or two down the line so you've got to keep the water tip top.

Someone else mentioned that adding medication is like a lottery, may or may not help no matter what you try. I'd avoid it if you've no idea what you are dealing with and stick to a UV steriliser instead. It's helped me the most. If you haven't added any fish that have possibly infected the tank with an "infectious" disease then the culprit is bad tank conditions and reversing that problem will help the strongest fish survive the ordeal.

a slight red colour (where his white markings usually are) along his fin bones..

bits of white on the edges of his fins, which had rotted away a bit (making him look alot shorter and smaller)

Yes, can be sign of septicaemia or a sign of ammonia burn too. If it's septicaemia, it will be red streaks, lines. If it's ammonia burn, fins rot and appear reddish at the base.

 

[sciencefiction]

I've been reading on U.V sterilises. Many posts are suggesting that that regular water changes can have the same result.

Swith on the UV steriliser immediately Regular water changes don't have the same effect as a properly setup UV steriliser. Those that suggest the opposite haven't tried it both ways. To give you an example, I had a platy with dropsy that recovered in a UV sterilised tank. No amount of water changes can do that. That was an achievement as this is totally incurable. I just can't recommend them enough if you've no idea how to cure sick fish. I had another poorly livebearer that had swollen gills sticking out and was hanging for dear life at the surface of one of my tanks for a week, lost weight too. It totally recovered once I "sterilised" it in another tank and unfortunately decided to give birth to several generations of fry too It's now a fat healthy happy fish chasing it's own kids all day long .The trick is the flow threw the UV to be really slow and the UV to be proper wattage for the tank size.

i think the bacteria causing the cloudy water is a good thing for the tank until the filter catches up

No, it's not a good thing. The bacteria causing cloudy water is heterotrophic bacteria. It's efficiency at converting ammonia to nitrites is about a million times less effective than the right bacteria and it can't convert nitrites to nitrates. The problem is the heterotrophs occupy all surfaces that should be occupied by the proper nitrogen bacteria, eat all their food too, thus suffocating the nitrogen bacteria and your tank is in a bad state. Flush that cloud of bacs as often as you can with fresh water to help the proper bacteria multiply instead.

 

[sciencefiction]

I didn't think substrate detritus was a big issue in a planted tank. Plants use it as fertalizer? I dont activly look to clean it up anymore, but there's never much of it anyway. just bits around the stem plants at the back of the tank.

I've never cleaned the substrate in my planted tanks. I never had an issue of any sort as long as it's not disturbed but if you turn it upside down I am sure there'll be issues I keep lots of corys and with nice long barbels sifting through the never cleaned substrate for years.

 

[Geraint]

ok. I'll take all of your advice and switch the UV steriliser on.
I've gone for a 36w and attached it to the outlet of my 1000l/h canister filter. I read that for an 18w steriliser a flow rate of 500l/h was needed. so i'm assuming double the wattage for double the flow rate?

ammonia spike seems most likely to have caused the initial problem then. I've both bought a new external filter and changed the substrate that month. I didn't realize either was so dangerous.

 

[alto]

Not quite the chart I was looking for but it gives you an idea of the energies required

Figure 2. Recommended zap doses for different organisms.

Figure 1. Recommended zap doses for different organisms.

Maintenance and regular bulb replacement are important, because UV-bulbs quickly lose their initial strength. Most UV bulbs need replacing every 6–9 months.

EDIS is one of the best sources on the net for easy access "scholar level" articles

Water flowing into/through the UV should be "polished" - any particles greatly reduce the potential efficacy of the process.
Check that quartz sleeves are used in the unit, anything else reduces transmission significantly, also lamps should be made with quartz glass; flow is important and there should be recommendations in the instruction booklet.
This article though written for the Water Board has some decent summary information on the mechanics of UV (references included )

Daily water changes (25%) have comntinued, but the tank is still cloudy.

This may be bacterial or an algae (think green water sort which comes in many colors other than green) - either way the UV should help clear this up, so getting that going seems a good decision.
Even with the UV keep up with frequent water changes - if you're able to monitor ammonia & nitrites/nitrates, I'd do so (Seachem has an ammonia alert that may be useful), this may reassure you in regards your N-cycle bacteria.

ammonia spike seems most likely to have caused the initial problem then. I've both bought a new external filter and changed the substrate that month. I didn't realize either was so dangerous.

Maybe ... transferring existing media over to a new filter can be done with no significant impact on the biofilter, as can substrate changes & tank tear downs - it all depends on the bioload & understanding what's important to the existing biofilter bacteria sitting in that canister etc, eg most people are concerned about keeping them submerged rather than well oxygenated.

In a heavily planted tank it's possible for the actual biofilter population (in the filter) to be very low as plants consume the ammonia as quickly as it's produced, if you overfeed or have a high fish load, this is less likely an occurrence - with mostly slow growing plants this is less likely than in a high tech, fast growth system.

so I decided to pull all the plants out (All were dying quicker than i could handle). The tank is currently a bed of sand, with a bit of wood and a small amount of surface plants that arn't growing.

So sorry to read this - I do think you may a good call just removing the plants.
Which surface plants do you have?
Salvia natans is known to absorb compounds readily (from the water) so you might try moving them over to a clean bin with just sunlight/desklamp for several days & see if they improve - again, change some water daily (you can likely just have 2 bins & swap plants to the next bin which just has treated tap etc water), after a few days, add some small amount of fertilizer to the bin water ... once you see consistent signs of growth, add half of them back to your tank (keep growing on the remaining half until the tank group looks good).

It's an easy assumption that the plants began dying off in response to the medications, though if you had a large population of Cryptocorynes or Aponogetons, these may "melt" just in response to changing water conditions/"unbalance" ... if you still have the bulbs/rhizomes, you may be able to recover them by setting up an emerse propagator.
(even if you've binned them, just dig them out & rinse & re-plant )

Yes, can be sign of septicaemia or a sign of ammonia burn too. If it's septicaemia, it will be red streaks, lines. If it's ammonia burn, fins rot and appear reddish at the base

Internal bacterial infection can certainly cause many of the symptoms observed in this tank (not sure what this has to do with septicaemia) but once a primary "challenge" occurs, secondary infections follow very quickly in fish.

 

[sciencefiction]

Internal bacterial infection can certainly cause many of the symptoms observed in this tank (not sure what this has to do with septicaemia) but once a primary "challenge" occurs, secondary infections follow very quickly in fish.

Thought of septicaemia because someone mentioned red streaks. Internal bacterial infection is associated with white poop too, similar to what parasites cause and fish will be skinny too. I don't know how is it so likely for the fish to have internal bacterial infection based on the evidence provided.
As I mentioned, unless new fish were introduced, the disease is not infectious but caused by either sudden or systematic bad water quality and the latter if not fixed on time, can progress to diseases caused by opportunistic germs all tanks have. By what Geraint said, including the cloudy water associated with ammonia spikes, I bet it at least started with water quality. I don't know why everyone jumps on medicating tanks when 99% of the times we have no idea what the fish have.

 

[Geraint]

Article looks interesting. It'll take me a while to read through it all and work out how to do the dose calculations, so I'll come back to that when I have more time.

the surface plant I currently have is Hydrocotyle Leucocephal. I used to have loads of it at the surface, and it looked gread. I only have a few strands now. The cloudy water only began after the fish had died and after the plants all began to melt. I thought this was due to the increased amount of decaying matter, but perhaps the plants were absorbing alot less amonia due to their melting, resulting in the cloudiness.. or a bit of both.

this was my tank at its best (you can see my long finned pleco on the anubias leaf)... I dare not show anyone what it looks like now

 

[alto]

I'm still not convinced of the supposed poor water quality triggering this series of events ..... my take remains that aggression between the 2 BN's resulted in the first observed ill fish, then application of meds which dramatically affected fish (I completely blame API on this one, as they refuse to place an warning label on Pimafix) & so the downward spiral goes ...

Geraint has shown such dedication to his tank & fish!

This month:
- I Replaced my external filter. my original one starte leaking, so i bought a new one. kept the same media though..The original external filter had a UV steriliser on it. the new one didn't.
- I changed the substrate on over half the tank to a darker type of playsand. the sand was washed befre putting it in, but the process might have stressed the fish a little. although they didn't look unhappy.
- I also bought a couple of new plants.

If tank doesn't stabilize soon, I'd switch out the substrate, just in case something is leaching that has affected plants & fish.
You might contact the supplier/manufacturer & request details on the product - if it's revealed that some antibacterial/antifungal is used, then you've an idea, if nothing is supposedly used, then you're not assured that sand was not contaminated at some stage in production/storage ... all you can do is go back to any changes made to the tank in the month leading up & consider the (likely remote) possibilities ... sometimes blahblahblahblah just happens

An example of (household) sponges which are now almost all treated, though many do not carry a warning as it's not a product designed/expected for aquarium use.

 

[alto]

Hydrocotyle Leucocephal.

this you can definitely get going again using emersed propagation

I'm surprised that the Anubias went into a complete decline, those leaves are generally pretty sturdy - the rhizome on it & the nymphaea would be worth attempting emerse growth.

If you're up to it, post current photos, there may be some good ideas that come out of it ...

The cloudy water only began after the fish had died and after the plants all began to melt. I thought this was due to the increased amount of decaying matter, but perhaps the plants were absorbing alot less amonia due to their melting, resulting in the cloudiness.. or a bit of both.

It's all interconnected.

What fish do you have remaining & how are they in terms of activity/behavior?

 

[sciencefiction]

I have had 5 tanks for years now and I have done a lot of messing. A simple substrate switch ones caused a 6 month problem with my fish. I won't mention the times when I messed with the filter. I think I already mentioned my corys. Changing media from one filter to another shouldn't theoretically cause a problem unless the new filter is less efficient flow wise. Everything together is not working and I agree the meds are not doing any good.

I'm still not convinced of the supposed poor water quality triggering this series of events ..

This is the number 1 cause of any sort of diseases and you'll be surprised how many events just the one spike can trigger.

 

[alto]

A simple substrate switch ones caused a 6 month problem with my fish

That surprises me - but I generally remove fish to a holding bin when doing substantial rescapes & have never had notable losses or apparent negative impact ... I used to rinse mechanical filter media weekly, bio-filter media monthly without apparent effect (now I'm too lazy & rarely open the canister or clean the tubing )
I have lost almost every fish in tanks after a "normal" water change (both instances traced back to water company changes), have dealt with odd parasites/viruses in wild caught fishes

In this instance tank looks to have healthy plant growth, reasonable fish load, weekly water changes ... only a single fish affected at the start ...
- if several fish had exhibited fin damage, low activity etc then I might agree that water quality was a significant preceding factor.

(perhaps I should admit that I've cultured loads of bacteria & isolated my "protein of interest" & run a million enzyme mechanism assays)

 

[sciencefiction]

That surprises me - but I generally remove fish to a holding bin when doing substantial rescapes & have never had notable losses or apparent negative impact ...

The fish were in a holding bin while I was changing the substrate, in their own old water with the filters running. The tank and filters were 4 years old about. I changed all the substrate with new.
I've never lost fish due to water changes. And I change 50% weekly on all 5 tanks.
I guess we all speak from experience and we're all right

if several fish had exhibited fin damage, low activity etc then I might agree that water quality was a significant preceding factor.

I thought several fish died. Water quality is almost always a preceding factor whether people admit it or not.

 

[Geraint]

I'm surprised that the Anubias went into a complete decline, those leaves are generally pretty sturdy - the rhizome on it & the nymphaea would be worth attempting emerse growth

the leaves were all turning completely brown and melting away. I'd cut away the bad ones, but then have a load more brown the following day. by the end i was left with just the rhizomes, which i threw onto the compost heap.

If you're up to it, post current photos, there may be some good ideas that come out of it ...

I'd have to borrow my sisters camera. I may do.

What fish do you have remaining & how are they in terms of activity/behavior?

I have cherry barbs (9) and pearl gourami (4), rummy nose tetra (1), Cardinal Tetra (1). All are eating fine. chaseing eachother around the tank. No signs of stress or disease.

I thought several fish died. Water quality is almost always a preceding factor whether people admit it or not.

It was initially only my long finned bristle nose pleco that had fin rot. All other fish were eating fine, playing and looked in good condition. as did my plants. It was within hours of adding the medication that my fish began looking lethargic. The Corries all lost balance and were swimming upside down and lying on their sides. During the water change that followed, the other pleco didn't move from the top of my internal filter and was "sleeping?" outside of the water. I had to push him back into the water where he swam to the back of the tank (I was having a melt down at this point). Over the next few days both pleco's and all my corries died. The plants then began to melt away, and the tank became cloudy. At this point I lost 4 of my rummyy nose tetras and 2 of my cardinal tetras. Pretty much all plants were then removed.
I've since added a 36w UV steriliser to the outlet of my 1000l/h external filter which was switched on last night. However the tank is still cloudy today. I'm not sure if this means that the steriliser is not having enough of an effect, or if the cloudyness is not biological.
25% daily water changes are still ongoing and will continue until i see clear water again.
I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and see If there's any improvement next weekend.

 

[sciencefiction]

I doubt it the UV sterlizer will clear up cloudiness caused by heterotrohic bacteria but it will clear green water algae if that's what you have. You have it connected to a filter outlet and I would presume the flow going through the UV is too high. In order for them to be effective, they are better off with their own power head set on slow flow. Check the manual of the UV, it normally tells you the max flow recommended.
To be honest, the consequences of events reminds me of my own mistakes when I jump to action before I think of consequences. Rushing to add meds is always a bad move. Unfortunately we've all done it. You've seen it didn't help the slightest. I can't know if the water quality was good or bad prior, you know better, but if it was bad, adding the meds is a death sentence. You could have done a complete water change if you saw the fish reacting badly to the meds within hours. I've used interpet anti fin rot and fungus on my corys full dose, and none of them died, but it didn't help the slightest either(the tank held my bristlenose pleco too and he's fine about 2 years after). I haven't ever used Primafix. I once tried melafix years ago, the corys started shooting to the surface for air, so I immediately changed all water and I can't tell you if it would have killed them or not because they are still alive 4-5 years later. I am not sure if you mixed the meds or not, but that should never be done, only in rare cases when both meds are compatible.

I think what you are doing now is right, just keep up with it until things go better, water changes, water changes..and patience.. This may take some time though but what will survive will survive, for the rest it's too late.

 

[cichlidlover]

We have stopped going to one LFS after my other half was sold Medication that was intended for Koi and other large cold water fish when she found one of our Denisonii barbs sick. The Meds killed nearly all our fish after she was advised on the dose to use, they also sold her Phosphate removing foam????
The ironic thing about it though is that we have allways kept isha 2000 in the cabinet, and having used it for years with no ill effects I trust this companies products totally, but because she panics when the fish are poorly she forgot we had some to hand!

 

[sciencefiction]

This is so sad to hear. It must have been a horrible experience.