Round Two

[Wisey]

So it has been a few days since I have updated my journal as I was away for a long weekend. Everything is automated anyway, so I just left the system running as usual, fed the fish on Saturday morning and fed them again when I got home on Tuesday evening as the auto-feeder over feeds and I did not want a mess. Generally everything was in reasonable condition when I returned...

The only real issue was all the remaining Lim. Sess. was floating around the tank and lots of leaves had come off which had clogged the plastic mesh I have in the top of the Eheim skimmer to keep fish out. I replanted a few stems of Lim. Sess, but not sure whether this is going to take off still. When I cleaned out the skimmer I found one of the Ember Tetras had died. Not sure if it died, floated and got sucked in, or went in there and died, I expect the later. I do have the plastic mesh, but it had slipped, probably with all the Lim. Sess, stuck in it causing a lot of suction on the mesh. It had therefore moved and allowed a small gap in to the skimmer, probably not enough for anything bigger than an Ember to get through, but just enough for an Ember to slip through.

Everything else seems to be doing well plant wise. The Ech. Quadricostatus does have old leaves melting, but all plants are putting out new leaves and two plants have put out runners which are 5-6 inches long with a new plant on each in only 4 days! I need to get in there and remove some old leaves, but this plant is doing well.

The Alternanthera has finally established roots, seems to have a decent hold in the substrate and has put on a growth spurt, new growth on all plantlets. This is a relief, I feel in another week or so I may be able to push the flow back up and little. The other 1-2 grow plant, the Pogo. Erectus does not appear to have done much yet, but I hope it is getting roots established. I had one piece floating when I got back which was replanted, but the rest seem to be holding well now.

Ceratopteris Thalictroides is doing well, its put on a spurt of growth and is one stem is well on the way to the surface. I'll probably need to trim and replant some stems at the weekend to start spreading this over a larger area.

The Hydrocotyle Tripartita is also filling in the areas around the large bogwood, all going fine there.

The only real annoyance is the amount of Tropica substrate that has come forward on to the sand at the front. I'll try to syphon all that out when I do the water change. I think the substrate is still subsiding in other areas too, so I may well need to fill in with a few more handfuls. I have a small amount left in the 9 litre bag I used at setup and I have a second 9 litre bag spare, so no issues there.

 

[alto]

Lim. Sess. was floating around the tank and lots of leaves had come off

shame ... just for contrast, I'd picked this plant up last week - had just arrived from Tropica so fairly small, emerse growth - it's likely doubled in size, no shedding etc,
in contrast the Lindernia rotundifolia just sits there & gives me the

 

[Wisey]

Well I get home this evening and it was famous last words about the Pogostomon, half of it was floating around the tank! It was fine this morning, so I can only assume a combination of sinking substrate in that back left corner and boisterous Cory's uprooting it. I needed to do a water change tonight after being away at the weekend, so went ahead and did that, topped up the soil in that corner while the water level was low and replanted all the Pogo. I have ensured that it is well pushed down in to the substrate, so hopefully it takes root properly soon.

I had not seen the Amano's since I got home last night and was wondering where they had gone, but found a fairly fresh looking moult this evening, then during the fresh water going back in, a Cory drove two of them out from behind the bogwood, so they are still in there somewhere!

The only real concern I have at the moment is the Echinodorus Quadricostatus. I had thought it was just the old emmersed leaves that were melting, but it appears that although new leaves from the crown of the plant seem to be ok, the new plants on the runners have some melting leaves too. That worries me that I have a CO2 issue with this plant. Tropica say that this plant is easy and has low light and CO2 requirements, but on Aqua Essentials, they list Echinodorus Magalensis (which Mick.dk assures me is the same plant) as skilled, with highish light and CO2 preferred, so who is right? The place where it is planted is right below the violet, so the flow does not hit it, but there is flow around the tank and micro bubbles all around that plant, so not sure what is going on. My DC was at the back next to the Pogo and looked lime green, I lifted it out and viewed out of the water actually looked more green/yellow, so I think I am on the brink of CO2 that I can inject, it's maybe just a distribution issue. I have moved the DC over to the right hand side near the Echinodorus and will see how that looks later on. The filter inflow is pretty near the Echinodorus, so I was hoping that would be drawing water through that plant, but maybe not having much impact. The plants are putting out crazy runners though, I had removed all runners when I rescaped and they have been putting out some really long ones, maybe 8 inches with 2 new plants on it! I have removed the runners for now, I would prefer the plants focus on putting energy in to themselves rather than new plants, I assume that is ok to do, someone correct me if I am wrong!

 

[alto]

Echinodorus Quadricostatus.

melting leaves or paling, transparent becoming leafs?
this is typical of this plant in my area: water is very soft, and this "easy" plant actually becomes more difficult to maintain looking good, than other plants rated at higher degree of difficult
eg as long as I add some CO2, M umbrosum is extremely tolerant of whatever stresses I may throw at it - fortunately it was already one of my favorite plants even before I discovered it's amazing "work" ethic - given the same care, E quadricostatus pales & wines ... yet it's South American so I'd not anticipate the soft, acidic water to be a factor ... ie, I doubt it's a CO2 issue (unless of course I'm guessing wrong on plant appearance & then all options are back on )

I'd leave one runner/plant, this may help relieve the "runner drive" (works with garden strawberry plants )

Amano's are the masters of hiding ... I'm never that impressed with their algae interest, long term ... I find they're quite happy to chip wood in some hidden cavern, only venturing out for bloodworms etc
while the Tigers & Cherry variants & Red-Nose (& contaminant Short-Nose) & "Emerald Green" (species not even guessed at by shipper) are out & about keeping up the neighborhood

 

[Wisey]

melting leaves or paling, transparent becoming leafs?
this is typical of this plant in my area: water is very soft, and this "easy" plant actually becomes more difficult to maintain looking good, than other plants rated at higher degree of difficult
eg as long as I add some CO2, M umbrosum is extremely tolerant of whatever stresses I may throw at it - fortunately it was already one of my favorite plants even before I discovered it's amazing "work" ethic - given the same care, E quadricostatus pales & wines ... yet it's South American so I'd not anticipate the soft, acidic water to be a factor ... ie, I doubt it's a CO2 issue (unless of course I'm guessing wrong on plant appearance & then all options are back on )

I'd leave one runner/plant, this may help relieve the "runner drive" (works with garden strawberry plants )

Amano's are the masters of hiding ... I'm never that impressed with their algae interest, long term ... I find they're quite happy to chip wood in some hidden cavern, only venturing out for bloodworms etc
while the Tigers & Cherry variants & Red-Nose (& contaminant Short-Nose) & "Emerald Green" (species not even guessed at by shipper) are out & about keeping up the neighborhood

The leaves become transparent, you can still see the veins, but you can see right through the leaf. So that's not melting then? I do have really soft water here, so maybe it is going to be harder for me to grow. I picked it as I thought it was going to be easy! The DC was lime green all night even after moving over to the other side. I'll check it again tonight and see how it is after being blue, does it go green as quickly there as the other side. There is certainly lower flow and less micro bubbles in that area, but the DC seems to suggest that there is good CO2 levels in that area.

 

[alto]

It could be melting but it's very different than the sort you see with crypts (other plants can lose leafs in the same manner) - so I just wanted to confirm that we're talking the same observation ...
re the soft water, do you support GH & KH? if so what are your target values?

You might try dosing some fertilizer in close proximity (no idea how this would work in terms of EI, as I feel you need to be more cautious in terms of not over-dosing compared to versions such as Tropica) but I'd look at GH/KH first as I believe you're likely dosing a good amount of nutrients (EI method as I recall)

 

[Wisey]

Not good news!

This first pic is what's happening to the Ech. Quadricostatus.

But this evening my Alternanthera is going the same way. These plants looked perfect yesterday, good growth, but now they are all like this in the space of 24 hours.

I don't understand how they have deteriorated so suddenly, they are the first plants to get the CO2 rich water from the violet pipe.

 

[alto]

8 determined otocinclus???

I'd try isolating them for a few days & observe - especially the E quad leaf looks suspiciously patterned

 

[Wisey]

I have no where to isolate them unfortunately! That is annoying, they never ate plants in the previous set-up!

I put a huge piece of bell pepper in there for the little blighters last night too!

 

[alto]

Maybe try some spinach & kales - organic just in case re shrimp ... though I suppose if you blanch first it should be fine, kale likely would need to be softened ... I read a discussion somewhere (recently but obviously not recent enough ) discussing the aspects of prepping kale .. it dries very nicely in the oven (very tasty if you season with olive oil & S & P) & then can be stored at room temp - probably best fed clipped in place (reef shops usually offer a magnet version veggie clip)

Oto's may get over the excitement of tender new plants - once they slow down, fast-growing plants generally do fine - it's possible that the oto's are just cleaning up leafs that are already somewhat damaged re transit/transition etc & aquatic leafs will be left alone.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

his first pic is what's happening to the Ech. Quadricostatus.

That is definitely plec damage.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wisey]

Hi all, That is definitely plec damage.

cheers Darrel

I don't have any plecs in the tank, just Otto's, Corys, Embers and some Amano shrimp. I guess it is the Otto's then, its a good job they are loved! Hopefully it is just the emmersed leaves that they are munching on, I didn't have any issues with them with established plants in the previous set-up. I do tend to keep them on the hungry side of fed because I want then working hard, but they have bell pepper in there at the moment and were eating that last night quite happily. I'll try to get them some more greens to keep them happy, I have no visible algae, so they are probably hungry.

 

[Wisey]

So almost a week on and not too much new to report, which is a little disappointing as I was hoping for more growth. The following plants are doing fine:

• Ceratopteris thalictroides - the main stem has reached the surface, smaller stems are growing well too. I guess I need to trim that main stem, but not certain how I should handle this plant, so if anyone has any advice it would be appreciated. It is not planted as individual stems, it was planted as one large plant from the pot. Can I just trim the longest stem down at the base, remove some leaves at the nodes and replant that stem separately to the main plant?
  
• Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya' - Growing really well, looks much better than in the previous setup. Leaves are pointing straight up, I understand in Crypts that this is an indicator of lower light levels, is this correct?
  
• Hydrocotyle tripartita - Removed the piece on the left, but the two areas planted around the main bogwood are growing well. They are a little tall at the moment, but when they get a bit taller I will train them through the wood.

The plants that I am not doing so well with are:

• Limnophila sessiliflora - I was down to three tiny stems remaining from that poor condition plant that arrived. Two more had melted stems and floated earlier this week. The third was starting to melt near the bottom, so I picked it out, no roots had formed. I removed the melted part, replanted and I now have one tiny stem which I hope might grow. Not holding my breath waiting though.
  
• Echinodorus quadricostatus - This plant seems healthy, as in its putting out runners and new leaves, but still have a lot of leaf damage and although the pic above looked like fish eating it, some of the other leaves look more like general decay. I think I should have removed more of the emmersed leaves before I planted it, like on the other Echinodorus plant handling videos, but with this plant looking different I was not sure and just planted it as a whole plant as it came from the pot. I guess I may just be dealing with emmersed leaves decaying. I will persevere and keep removing old leaves as they decay.
  
• Pogostemon erectus Tropica 1-2-Grow - This is the plant I was most worried about when I set up the aquarium. I'm not sure how quickly this is meant to go, but its virtually dormant. No melt or die back at all, maybe a few millimetres growth, but that's about it. How long should it take for this tissue culture plant to get established before it starts to show growth? The flow is good here and the DC is always lime green a few centimetres above the plant during the photoperiod. I'm not convinced it has enough light, more on this later.
  
• Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' Tropica 1-2-Grow - This looks the same as in the pictures from last week. It does appear that it is just the old emmersed leaves that look in poor condition and the newer leaves might be ok, but after the initial growth spurt it really appears to have slowed down. Not sure what to do with this, whether I should just leave it to get on with it or try to remove all the damaged leaves, which wont be easy with a small plant. I don't want to damage the tiny delicate stems while trying to remove leaves. I also think this might need more light.

So, my thoughts on the lighting. I'm still running at 100% for 6 hours per day as I was from day one. Zero algae, slow growth on everything other than the fast growers and even they are not exactly flying away. The Crypt leaves are pointing straight up at the light which I understand is a sign of lower light levels. My tile is still suspended 30cm from the surface and I still have the plexiglass cover over the tank. That cover has a lot of condensation on the underside, so must be a huge light diffuser. I therefore feel that I may still be too low on light for some of the plants like the Pogo and Alternanthera.

I'm undecided how to proceed. I thought about adding another hour to the photoperiod, but I'm not sure duration is really the issue, my concern is more the intensity. What do you guys think about dropping the height of the light by 10cm and see how that goes for 2 weeks? Remember that its a 45 cm high tank, light 30cm from water surface and the cover diffusing light. Would this be the best next step?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I guess I need to trim that main stem, but not certain how I should handle this plant, so if anyone has any advice it would be appreciated. It is not planted as individual stems, it was planted as one large plant from the pot. Can I just trim the longest stem down at the base, remove some leaves at the nodes and replant that stem separately to the main plant?

It isn't really a stem plant, it is a fern so each "stem" is really a leaf.

I would suggest not trimming the fronds, although you can take them off at the base.

New plants will form from adventitious buds on the fronds, and I usually wait for the frond to start declining, and then take the "plantlets" off. You can re-plant them, although I usually just let them float around the tank.

This is the related Ceratopteris pteroides, it has the same method of vegetative reproduction, but you can see the new plants much more easily (C. pteroides is a obligate? floater, with much broader fronds)

cheers Darrel

 

[Wisey]

Hi all, It isn't really a stem plant, it is a fern so each "stem" is really a leaf.

I would suggest not trimming the fronds, although you can take them off at the base.

New plants will form from adventitious buds on the fronds, and I usually wait for the frond to start declining, and then take the "plantlets" off. You can re-plant them, although I usually just let them float around the tank.

This is the related Ceratopteris pteroides, it has the same method of vegetative reproduction, but you can see the new plants much more easily (C. pteroides is a obligate? floater, with much broader fronds)

cheers Darrel

Interesting! Every day is a school day

So with this one piece which is twice the size of the rest of the plant, it's technically a leaf, if I cut that off at the base then I just have to throw that away, I can't replant it?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So with this one piece which is twice the size of the rest of the plant, it's technically a leaf, if I cut that off at the base then I just have to throw that away, I can't replant it?

You can float it in the tank and new plants will grow on the cut leaf.

I'm undecided how to proceed. I thought about adding another hour to the photoperiod, but I'm not sure duration is really the issue, my concern is more the intensity. What do you guys think about dropping the height of the light by 10cm and see how that goes for 2 weeks? Remember that its a 45 cm high tank, light 30cm from water surface and the cover diffusing light. Would this be the best next step?

I'd drop the light down lower towards the tank.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wisey]

I dropped the tile 10 cm, wow, why did I not try this before? Research on this site made me so worried about light, but I really do think a lot of my problems have been lack of light as others on here have experienced with running these tiles on low intensity.

The difference 10cm makes is huge, I guess it is a combination of more light in the tank, but also less spill of light in to the room which makes the tank look brighter. Fingers crossed I get growth without algae!

 

[Wisey]

Excuse the dirty pipes, I was lazy at the last clean up, they will get done Sunday. This is the FTS after more light.

 

[alto]

Ceratopteris thalictroides

you can handle this plant as shown in the Tropica video oops: no replant shown in this video ... it's been forever since I grew this plant, but as I recall I did replant the "stem" - though you can float it until roots appear as well)

Echinodorus quadricostatus

just keep on with the tidying

Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' Tropica 1-2-Grow

I suspect this plant is struggling somewhat given the attention it's receiving from the Oto's - you can just use sharp scisssors to trim affected leafs, don't worry about the last bits attached to stem etc

Pogostemon erectus Tropica 1-2-Grow

This plant seems to take a couple weeks to find it's "feet", then growth should be pretty steady ... you can watch it in Pedro Rosa's journal (note how everything else is going in relation)
- I do think it is more senstive than some to light levels

I dropped the tile 10 cm

 

[Wisey]

you can handle this plant as shown in the Tropica video oops: no replant shown in this video ... it's been forever since I grew this plant, but as I recall I did replant the "stem" - though you can float it until roots appear as well)


just keep on with the tidying


I suspect this plant is struggling somewhat given the attention it's receiving from the Oto's - you can just use sharp scisssors to trim affected leafs, don't worry about the last bits attached to stem etc


This plant seems to take a couple weeks to find it's "feet", then growth should be pretty steady ... you can watch it in Pedro Rosa's journal (note how everything else is going in relation)
- I do think it is more senstive than some to light levels

Thanks for the heads up on the Tropica video, I had missed that one. I probably should have divided the plant when I first planted rather than plant as one big plant. Looks like I will just have to keep trimming and trying to encourage it to spread.

It was actually Pedro's journal that convinced me that I was doing something fundamentally wrong with Tissue Culture plants. He had more growth in 7 days than I had in 7 months! It is a while since I read that journal though, so thanks for pointing me back at it as I had not remembered that his Pogo was much slower than the other plants. I have definitely got a few stems that seem to have a little growth, so with the addition of more light and them now being settled in for a few weeks I hope they start to take off. For Pedro they are much lower than his other background plants, but I only want mine to get to a mid height anyway and give a nice contrasting background to the Alternanthera.