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Topsoil/substrate queries.

T

Tknoxx

Seedling
Joined
17 Dec 2013
Messages
24
Hi I started setting up a mineralised topsoil tank last year and was nearing completion when i got a new job and moved from northern ireland to the isle of lewis.
It's taken me a while but now I am setting up a new tank again and I had planned to do a topsoil tank again, but a few things have put me off:
1. I now live in a flat so have no access to my own topsoil unless i buy a bagged one ( there's only one garden centre on the island and the topsoil looks like it probably would be fine. the supermarkets only have multipurpose composts with ferts added so may not be safe)
2. I unsuccessfully used peat in tanks and it was so light that it messed up the bottom of the tank as it kept rising.
3. I like to poke about and mess with the planting so don't want to make a mess.

I see a lot of people use tesco cat litter and originally I had planned to do 50:50 but I noticed a lot of people just had the cat litter on it's own.

I just want something simple that will work. The planting will be mostly low light planting and easy care - probably crypts, wisteria, anubias, vallis, java fern.

So I'm wondering should I just go for cat litter on it's own (capped with gravel)? I just want something that will help the plants grow a little more than sand or gravel would. I don't want to be constantly dosing ferts.

Any advice is appreciated. I'm in no real hurry as I want to get the substrate right before planting.
 
Cat litter has no nutrients but has good CEC ability to store some once they magically appear in the tank. So it needs time to mature and won't give the plants a kick start unless you dose the water column.

Personally, I've done two tanks with purchased topsoil, one mineralized topsoil and one with a different kind which I didn't bother mineralizing and they've done very well for me.

However, if you are going with mostly slow growers such as crypts, anubias and java fern, then you probably don't need rich substrate, it could even be a bad thing because soil needs lots of roots in it to oxygenate it. With a soil substrate it's best to have fast growers and heavy rooters at the same time. Anubias and java fern are just for decoration but won't help much in balancing a tank. However, if you have lots of valis and lots of wisteria you maybe ok. Just my own opinion.

If you want a low tech tank with none or rare dosing and healthy, fast growing plants, then I'd highly recommend the mineralized topsoil approach despite it's more difficult to do the soil and get it going at first. The way it works it also provides extra CO2 for the plants which no cat litter or gravel will do, at least not the first year or two.
 
Thanks. I was also going to have floating plants to help balance the tank. I find they grow so fast. I suppose having the topsoil would help in terms of making sure the floating plants don't outcompete the other plants for the nutrients in the water column? Or I suppose it is the light that would be the limiting problem if the floating plants were outcompeting them. I might just use topsoil cat litter mix then. Do you need to mineralise the topsoil if you have the high CEC cat litter in too? I don't have a garden I live in a flat now.
 
Mineralising the soil means the moist soil exposed to lots of oxygen converts the available chemicals into forms that the plants can accept readily. It's best for the plants, best for the fish as they won't be harmful ammonia or the likes or at least very minimal. Mineralising prevents algae blooms that occur in initial setup. Otherwise it may take 6 months for the soil to get truly mineralised in a tank under water due to the low amounts of oxygen available to the soil, can hugely decrease the oxygen content in the tank due as well which is a limiting factor and can have effect on the entire balance.
Soil has higher CEC than cat litter from what I know, so it's not necessary but may have some iron in it that can help along. I mix my soil with 5-10% red clay instead and cap it with coarse sand.
 
sciencefiction said:
However, if you are going with mostly slow growers such as crypts, anubias and java fern, then you probably don't need rich substrate, it could even be a bad thing because soil needs lots of roots in it to oxygenate it. With a soil substrate it's best to have fast growers and heavy rooters at the same time. Anubias and java fern are just for decoration but won't help much in balancing a tank. However, if you have lots of valis and lots of wisteria you maybe ok. Just my own opinion.

If you want a low tech tank with none or rare dosing and healthy, fast growing plants, then I'd highly recommend the mineralized topsoil approach despite it's more difficult to do the soil and get it going at first. The way it works it also provides extra CO2 for the plants which no cat litter or gravel will do, at least not the first year or two.
Click to expand...

What plants would you recommend that are heavy rooting, fast growing and need low light levels then?
 
Tknoxx said:
What plants would you recommend that are heavy rooting, fast growing and need low light levels then?
Click to expand...

+1 on Tknoxx's question, I'm in the same situation.
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I'd honestly pick what you like. A lot of plants grow very well in a mineralized soil substrate, but not so well in a plain low tech. So the soil tank gives you advantage of great choice.
Heavy rooters are plants such as echinodorus species, some of which grow pretty fast like amazon swords for example but others maybe as slow as crypts. Crypts are heavy rooters but may not grow as fast. Hydrophila species also root heavily and grow pretty fast and many more I'd presume, depends on the size of the tank and what you want.
Fast growers are most stem plants like ludwiga, rotala, etc..many of them are fast growers so you need to pick what you like. Also bulb species such as aponogetons and lotuses are beautiful and grow fast.

In terms of light, I wouldn't worry about that part and wouldn't limit yourself to too little either. I've figured even what's considered "high light" plants can grow in a soil type tank with a few exceptions I suppose. You need to start lower/shorter period of light and gradually increase the amount once the tank fills in with plants. I had an aponogeton crispus in a shadower spot in a tank and one in a very lit spot in the middle of the same tank. The one in the lit spot grew way better, nicer broader and better coloured leaves. The one that was getting less light grew leggy and thin leaves. So some need more light and do better with light even if it's a "low tech" non-fertilised, non-co2 tank. The soil releases plenty of co2 for them. So when planting, keep their light requirements in mind as they can overshadow each other in time plus some light units just don't spread the light well to the sides of the tank.
You can combine with floating plants to control light at the start and mop excess nutritients. If you think it's too much and algae appears, let the floaters cover as much as possible surface, if you think the plants slowed down and not growing well, bin some floaters.
The tank can look rough at the start because the plants will need to adjust, some can melt heavily so clean them from melts, bad leaves, replant if necessary but given everything goes to plan, they should pickup and grow way faster eventually. Some will grow slow, some plants as fast as weekly trimming.

In terms of flow, I setup nearly as much flow some setup for their high tech tanks, like 10x the volume of filtration an hour but a bit less will do as long as it's uniform. It's best with spraybar(s) at the back below the water level pointed horizontally against the front glass. Being below the surface will give you the option of the floaters not drowning which they don't like but also the right amount of flow and still a bit of surface movement.

If you use soil and a cap, put max 1 inch of soil and about the same as a cap. More soil does not equal more nutritients or CO2 from the soil and too deep cap will just slow down all the processes going on because you need some detritus to still be capable of falling between the cap grains and decompose down there to give CO2. Also if the soil is too deep, it's easier to go anaerobic as oxygen otherwise will reach via the plants roots and via the cap as well which is the goal so nitrification and decomposition happens, not production of hydrogen sulphide killing the plants and eventually the tank inhabitants.
The soil has high CEC abilities so it will recharge itself from the fish/fish excrements/detritus, etc..

Tknoxx said:
I like to poke about and mess with the planting so don't want to make a mess
Click to expand...
I use a bit of natural red clay in the soil mix(5-10%) which has flocculent ability as well as providing some iron and the soil particles settle in minutes clearing the water. With a mineralized soil the mess should be way less. But it's best to do a water change if messing too much at a time. Don't pull the entire roots from the soil, just lift the plant a bit and cut through the exposed roots, leaving the deep ones in the soil.

If you haven't seen it, I'd highly recommend you seeing the journal below. Take a few snacks as it's long but it's a beautiful low tech soil tank.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/toms-bucket-o-mud-the-end.14521/
 
IME, I'd recommend that you...
Just use the bagged topsoil, and cap it with gravel or whatever substrate you like, fine or coarse grained it doesn't matter. If you don't want to dose fertz cat litter isn't the best choice as already mentioned. You may find, however, that eventually you will have to dose if you want to keep your floaters and epiphytes healthy.
It's not necessary to minerlize the soil. IME there is no extra benefit from doing so, and not doing so may actually benefit plant growth. Don't confuse mineralizastion with tank cycling.
Don't worry about soil or cap depth too much, 2-10cm soil and the same for a cap is fine. H2S will rarely become a problem since it becomes harmless sulfates in the presence of O2
If you like to poke around use a gravel tidy or soil retainer between the soil and capping substrate, it'll prevent your tank turning in to a muddy puddle, but will not hinder plant growth.
Peat would have been fine if you'd soaked it for around 2 weeks, and removed the floating detritus before placing in your tank.
Check out the link below for more details, there is a plant list at the end of the tutorial.
 
It's not necessary to minerlize the soil. IME there is no extra benefit from doing so, and not doing so may actually benefit plant growth. Don't confuse mineralizastion with tank cycling.
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I agree with Troi that mineralization is not necessary. But I can't see how it is not beneficial and going to affect plants?
If it's about removing the organics that produce CO2, there are plenty left after mineralisation and the tanks themselves have no problems producing abundant organics. Plus tanks are oxygen limited. Give too much organics at a time which happens with rich soils/deep soils or soils devoid of plant roots going deeper(new tanks) and you have anaerobic soil killing plants and inhabitants. More is not better always.

If you like to poke around use a gravel tidy or soil retainer between the soil and capping substrate, it'll prevent your tank turning in to a muddy puddle, but will not hinder plant growth.
Click to expand...

This is one reason to mineralise the soil. It doesn't become like a mud puddle when replanting.

You may find, however, that eventually you will have to dose if you want to keep your floaters and epiphytes healthy
Click to expand...
.

As far as I am concerned after a year and a half even with no ferts whatsoever in a mineralized soil tank my emersed tropical are flowering. Certainly not void of anything yet. The java fern and anubias aren't showing any signs of deficiency either which are planted on the wood.
 
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Troi said:
IME, I'd recommend that you...

If you like to poke around use a gravel tidy or soil retainer between the soil and capping substrate, it'll prevent your tank turning in to a muddy puddle, but will not hinder plant growth.
Peat would have been fine if you'd soaked it for around 2 weeks, and removed the floating detritus before placing in your tank.
Check out the link below for more details, there is a plant list at the end of the tutorial.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much - I found that tutorial earlier Troi and it was a great help.
Where will I find a gravel tidy or soil retainer? Garden store? I'll ask on monday
The peat had been soaked for weeks but it still migrates through the sand.
 
sciencefiction said:
I agree with Troi that mineralization is not necessary. But I can't see how it is not beneficial and going to affect plants?
If it's about removing the organics that produce CO2, there are plenty left after mineralisation and the tanks themselves have no problems producing abundant organics. Plus tanks are oxygen limited. Give too much organics at a time which happens with rich soils/deep soils or soils devoid of plant roots going deeper(new tanks) and you have anaerobic soil killing plants and inhabitants. More is not better always.

As far as I am concerned after a year and a half even with no ferts whatsoever in a mineralized soil tank my emersed tropical are flowering. Certainly not void of anything yet. The java fern and anubias aren't showing any signs of deficiency either which are planted on the wood.
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I plan to do a dry start method of emersed growth for four weeks or so then adding in the fish.
 
I'm sure that will all work fine too. As for soil retainer I use this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greenhouse-Shading-5m-x-6m/dp/B001P3SPIU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399807792&sr=8-1&keywords=gardman greenhouse shading

I've found that to a point it doesn't really matter too much about soil depth. Although, I do think that a deeper substrate does actually ensure the soil remains viable for longer, especially in addition to water column replenishment. Sure conditions will become increasingly anaerobic the deeper the substrate, but then again aquatic sediments are anaerobic by nature and macrophytes have evolved to grow in them.
There's no real need to have a deep capping substrate especially if shallow rooting species are to be used...a couple of cms is fine, but I've used much deeper when the aesthetics of the scape has called for it without problems.
I've never had a problem with O2 limitation either, but then I always plant very densely from the beginning and use 10x flow with a fair amount of surface agitation.
Mineralizing your soil first is fine too, it's just a matter of preference, but IMO it doesn't infer any additional benefits, and it still has the potential to make a mess if you're not careful.
All our tanks are different with differing plant growth rates and demands for nutrients. I've found that in particular fast growing floaters can strip the water column of nutrients quite rapidly and so need additional nutrient dosing to thrive. I'm also sure that, for the most part, slow growing anubias and ferns generally appear unaffected either way but IME they do benefit from nutrient dosing. I think the main reason they appear slow growing is that they don't get enough nutrients... I've had some phenomenal growth rates.
Floaters are a great indicator of the nutrient status of the water column...checkout the duckweed index http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/
 
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Should I add the gravel cap after planting or before? I got my topsoil and have about an inch in the tank which should do for what I want.
 
I'd cap the soil first. If you soil isn't mineralised it can make a big mess on first fill with water plus the soil will contain air if it was never soaked and you don't want it to bubble and run into the water column after you plant. So I'd add the proper cap making sure there's enough all around. Carefully fill it with water, you can use a dish to pour over so not to make a hole in the substrate and release the soil but if you are using a hose, putting the hose in a plastic bag at the bottom works great.
Filling and draining will also flush a bit of stuff that the soil will inevitably release on first soak into the water column, including possible chemicals. Then drain down to a suitable level and plant. Try to get the roots in the soil or at least as close as possible. Keep the plants moist with either wet paper or spraying them and don't forget to dechlorinate the tank at least on last fill.

Have fun :)
 
Thanks - but as I am going to try a dry start would you still recommend the cap first?
 
really? I'm new to all this so I felt DSM would be more appropriate as it would give the plants a better head start and most plants are grown emergent anyway?

I was going to plant then cap it immediately as opposed to when they'd grown.
 
I haven't done a DSM so I won't put you off. The thing is one day no matter what those plants will go under water and you can still have an adaptation period, especially in a low tech as they will be used of atmospheric amounts of CO2 and you'll be subjecting them to way lower amounts of CO2, so there is a chance your nice dry started plants will melt when submersed but I know Diana Walstad did a dry start with a low tech soil tank successfully. Here is her article below, middle of it you'll find what she did.

http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf

Some plants though will not last in a dry start method so it all depends what you are going to plant as well. It's only good for a caret as in a low tech tank it will grow way slower under water obviously and you may want to look at a nice carpet from the start.
Other than that, especially with already submersed plants if you can buy these, plants in a soil will take off immediately if everything is right and will grow fast. Don't expect it's too slow because it's low tech. Once they get their little roots to that soil they grow by day.

I started one tank with plants that were previously grown emersed and had spent quite a bit of time in the post too, and I had massive melts the first month but eventually with lots of replanting of plants on their last legs I managed to save most species and they recovered and exploded in growth eventually. Then I started a 2nd tank from already healthy submersed plants and they took off immediately, doubled in a week. So it depends.
 
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