• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Ammania sp. bonsai melting

Paulo,
Where were the plants relative to the water's surface when they were placed in the breeding trap?
Where were they relative the the surface when they were planted?

Explain this:

Why don't I have any trouble growing the 1-2 Grow version of this plant?

Cheers,
 
Hi Clive,
Thanks for asking

Where were the plants relative to the water's surface when they were placed in the breeding trap?

Almost at the top left front. In the oposite side of the outflow but submerged (of course as they were in a breading trap). I even care for puting a semi transparent plastic in the top of the breading trap for the light don´t be to strong and for not be to different by the time i plant them in the bottom.

Where were they relative the the surface when they were planted?

I planted in 4/5 different places of the tank. Cause i had the disapointment of other atempts. So i planted all along the frotn of the tank.

Explain this:

Why don't I have any trouble growing the 1-2 Grow version of this plant?

And why others do?
That´s why we are here. That´s why i email Tropica. That´s why they are the ones who should pay attention.
Wich is more realiable: You being an exception or thousands with a common problem?

Maybe you got lucky with a series of Amannia/Rotala. Maybe the next time you could be struggling too.
Who knows?
They should.
 
And i tell you more..
In the place of the Amannia i allready plant in the very same day Staurogyne repens there she is beautifil...

And more: "Fissiden Fontanus" all along a wood and she´s still there and i can allready see some grow. Bright small leaves apearing..

Is the tank? Is the water ?
Can you explain? I can´t.

A big hug.
 
Paulo,
Do you really think that Tropica does not grow their own plants in an aquarium? Do you think they have difficulty?

You and others have difficulties because you roam The Matrix looking for answers that you like to hear instead of dealing with the answers that are difficult to achieve. As I explained ad nauseum, CO2 concentration levels are highest at the top of the tank, even if the light intensity is also at it's highest. If any pieces of the plant are sticking out of the water then that leaf has access to 300ppm of CO2. When you submerge the plant the situation changes and the conditions now depend on the gas concentration level as well as the flow and distribution at the location that it is planted. It no longer has a snorkel. The concentration of CO2 in a tank is never static and is NOT homogeneous. It can be 10X lower at the bottom of the tank than at the top. That's why flow/distribution, injection rate, light intensity and gas timing are so important. I thought you would have learned that lesson by now.

You have fish in the tank, so there is a limitation to how much you can push the gas to serve the needs of this particular plant at this particular time. Some time later the requirements will change because the plant would have adapted.

So the answer to your question is "It's not your water, it's your fish." get rid of them and all of these mysterious maladies will disappear and you will understand the truth, because you will be able to drive the gas to maximum levels.

I have already shown you the path for solving the other CO2 issues in your tank. You should ALWAYS suspect that the limitation of your plants is a CO2 limitation. Whether or not you can actually solve that problem is not a certainty. Of course you will not just throw your fish out the window. That's OK, but likewise, there is no need to waste energy looking under every rock for an alternate reason. If you have a CO2 limitation in your tank and if a particular plant does not accept your limitation then that's just life. Why should the fact that one plant is satisfied automatically mean that another plant will be satisfied?

It isn't your tank, or your water, or your spectrum any more than whether it's the day of the week or the phase of the moon. The explanation is very simple. One day, try a tank without fish - without limitations, and you will see how fruitless it is to blame all these various parameters. This is a carbon planet. Everything revolves around carbon. It's in your blood. All your cells feed using sugar, a carbon construct. When you lose access to carbon, you waste away. The same for plants and every living thing on the planet.

I don't have trouble growing plants because I always think my CO2 is never good enough. The people who have the most trouble are those who assume their CO2 is good enough. Only rarely is the cause some other factor, such as toxicity or parameters, but you must first exhaust every possibility of a CO2 shortfall first, not last, otherwise you will waste a lot of money buying replacement plants.

Here, look at this, a couple different species of ludwigia on the left. Amazing, right? Well, no, they are under duress from the lighting and as a result, are suffering CO2 deficiency. How can you tell? Look at the leaves. They are highly pigmented to protect themselves from the light energy and, most importantly, they are warped and crinkled. This is a classic symptom of poor CO2, but at that time I had similar limitations as you do now. There were fish in the tank and the amount of CO2 injection under that lighting condition, required to solve this problem would annihilate the fish within minutes, so I had to live with it.
8394112053_f20e245663_b.jpg


Here is how straight the leaves look when they are NOT under light/CO2 distress:
8394103349_052debdbc1_c.jpg

8395187612_355c9805d0_c.jpg



In your case, most likely it would have been better to exercise patience, to reduce the lighting and float the plants a bit longer. CO2 is NOT a pill that you take, or a button that you press. It's a very complicated excercise, and you have to accept that you will always be tweaking to get the best out of it.

You're not the first to discard the notion of CO2 shortfall. Have a look at this journal thread which goes on and on for 2 years. It took Tyropagus 2 Years to solve his problem. http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/swamp-creek-2-years-on-updated-june-2012.11074/

Whether you accept that explanation, well, I leave the choice to you.

Cheers,
 
So the answer to your question is "It's not your water, it's your fish." get rid of them and all of these mysterious maladies will disappear and you will understand the truth, because you will be able to drive the gas to maximum levels.

I think ceg you are taking things to the extreme here. Come one really? Put your fish out in order to be able to pump more CO2? There are more things in life/high tech tank than CO2. Just to name one, oxygenation at night. Plants need just as much oxygen as they need CO2 (not strictly speaking).

Many new people are being pushed to that side of pushing CO2 into their tanks to the point of killing fish,solely by you ceg. Im sure you have helped hundreds, me included, but I think the matrix thing has gone a bit far for me with CO2. Its the oposite of the matrix in this case. All the extremes from what Ive gathered are just as bad.

Why not promote a safer way of dealing with CO2 like the mist method? Thats what tropica uses dont they? a miserable difuser.
Why not promote lowering the light. How much light does tropica and Amano use?

I dont know maybe its just me, behaving like a girl here and making a big deal out o things:oops:. Lol.

Its a free world though (generally) and its good to have all points of view.
 
Are you actually reading the entire post or are you just being obnoxious?
You are blaming me for other people killing their fish with CO2?
You don't think I promote using less light, or using other methods like flow/distribution to improve CO2 efficiency?

I dont know maybe its just me, behaving like a girl here and making a big deal out o things:oops:. Lol.
Yes, it's just you. Other people get my point that instead of wasting time and energy blaming plant health failures on irrelevant factors, they should recognize their limitations and find a better way to improve CO2.

Cheers,
 
Good Morning,
Aprecciate all your considerations and taking good reading and care from it.

Just want to say that i thank you all.

To end this..
Clive:
I always pay attention on your guidelines my friend and i´m not looking or trying to cover nothing or trying to blame other things.. . You know that. And i made a few changes in my tank in acordance to those guidelines. So i´m all ears from what you friends gently were telling me to do and improve. And so i did it. And it wasn´t so many changes at all, but just increase the flow and the co2. This was easy to acomplish.
If i didn´t care i would have not contact Tropica and others looking for answers. I do care! I love this. Only i can not acept that all bad things are in the tank itself. I have to reconsider other factors. I´m so sorry but i can not acept that this kind of issues of melting are strictly to the tanks.
You do and i respect that. I don´t. I put one more "algorithm" in this equation.

Even before i made this changes i never had too many problems with the tank.
I never had BBA, GSA, GDA diatoms, Cianos etc etc etc never! So the tank was and it is pretty good.

Not perfect. But Perfection is my goal. I´m seeking it.
But look.. I have a 60 liter tank unocupied.. i have diffusers, substrate, and all stuff to start a new tank without fish as you sugested. Let me tell you that is something that cross my mind before. Just never put in action.

But i will this time. Cause i do care about this art.
And im gonna blow tons of co2 you´ll see.. I don´t care. I´m gonna set up a tank with all parameters (the ones that are of our knowledge) as Tropica.
5 KH, 25 degrees, 6 to 8 GH, tropica plant growth substrate, and whatever it takes...

In a few months we´ll see.

I know you did quite a lot experiences in this hobby during your life to test things and i truly respect your konwledge, truly!
So just like you i´m going to do also some testing. Fortunately i have means to do it..

Regard one last thing.. i could simple did as thousands do..the plant doesn´t work? OK garbage with it and try other different.
But that is the behaviour of those who don´t want to learn, don´t seek answers, don´t question themselfs. I think i´m not one of those. If so we were not talking here. ;)

Best regards to all.
 
Firstly i'd like to state that i agree with Ceg on this. Although not always on how he words his argument. I dont have a problem with this though.

Paulo im curious as to how you know thousands struggle with this tropica 1-2 grow plant? Mine grew from day 1 and is a very fast grower. Probably too fast to achieve its healthiest state. I also cannot see why tropica would change anything they do just because this plant melts in your tank.

The photos Ceg posted hold the answer. By limiting the co2 due to fish we have to accept that plants may not be as healthy as they can be. Especially high demanding plants.

Question for you Ceg, if you dont mind...

You say Co2 is the cause of melting. Well i know change in temperature triggers melting. Is this really a temperature change issue or does it have something to do with co2 levels in water at different temps?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yes, it's just you. Other people get my point that instead of wasting time and energy blaming plant health failures on irrelevant factors, they should recognize their limitations and find a better way to improve CO2.

I know there so many more who think like me from the comments Ive seen. Not going to get personal anyway. I like to question things and Just made my point. Its not all about CO2. And yes your philosophy of pushing CO2 to the limits has killed many fish. Is it your fault? Obviously not and every one acts under his own will.

Also what about my question on the CO2 levels of tropica and other Ammania bonsai tanks that you see on the www? Why are they growing Ammania with a diffuser?
Do you think ceg that the mist method going over the lants makes it easier to grow some plants like this one?
 
Last edited:
You say Co2 is the cause of melting. Well i know change in temperature triggers melting. Is this really a temperature change issue or does it have something to do with co2 levels in water at different temps ?
Yes solubility of CO2 varies with temperature. You will find it easier to get more CO2 in the water at lower temperatures. Mind you plant metabolism slows down at lower temperatures so will probably not be able to make use of the extra CO2.

Look for the CO2 graph here.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.html
 
How can people agree with taking out the fish in order to push the CO2 up? Is this real? cause it feels like a paralel MATRIX.
 
Hi Jose,

The point that is being made is that the plant is melting due to a CO2 deficiency.

IF (please note - IF )the only way to solve the problem is to up the CO2 levels beyond what the fish can tolerate then you have two choices:

1. Remove the fish and therefore the restriction and up the CO2.

2. Keep the fish and therefore the restriction and put up with the deficiency.
 
Hi Jose,
The point that is being made is that the plant is melting due to a CO2 deficiency.
IF (please note - IF )the only way to solve the problem is to up the CO2 levels beyond what the fish can tolerate then you have two choices:
1. Remove the fish and therefore the restriction and up the CO2.
2. Keep the fish and therefore the restriction and put up with the deficiency.

But this plant is being kept with fishes in other tanks. So maybe, just maybe it might be something else than co2.
 
The point that is being made is that the plant is melting due to a CO2 deficiency.

This is the starting point here. Its not an "if" as you state. There is no room for anything else than co2 and this is what I dont get. Specially since it is the best way to kill your fish.

I dont think those two are the only answers "If" its a co2 defficiency. Ive given another option: CO2 mist/bubbles which seem to be quite efficient, and you dont need to take fish out. And look at amano and tropica for examples.
 
Jose im not an expert nor do i ever claim to be. Just interested in this thread. Could it be that the ammania needs better co2 for this transition phase. Im not talking about 'kill fish' crazy high levels. Maybe the people that have this plant melt on them dont have the required levels/distribution.

Im not disagreeing with you at all. There may be other factors at play. Like Ceg states earlier, i have also followed the paulo thread in which he struggles with co2 distribution. Maybe Cegs argument is not to be disregarded so readily?

Then again its up to you what you believe in or not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Paulo, it sounds as though you are suspicious of your substrate, like there is something that is killing the plant.

What you could try is to grow the plant immersed (out of water) using some substrate from your tank. If you see the same results immersed that you see submersed, this tells you that it is likely to be something in the substrate. If not, it's most probably (which I also believe) CO2 deficiency.
 
Hi Jose,

The point that is being made is that the plant is melting due to a CO2 deficiency.

IF (please note - IF )the only way to solve the problem is to up the CO2 levels beyond what the fish can tolerate then you have two choices:

1. Remove the fish and therefore the restriction and up the CO2.

2. Keep the fish and therefore the restriction and put up with the deficiency.

Or change the plant...
 
You still keep talking about the co2..

If you follow then you know the Co2 issue it´s more than solved resolved..and so as the flow (a 400 liter hour pump on the tank and there you go.. plants shaking and co2 everywhere plus the 750 liter filter - for 80 real liter tank. ).
And it was not that hard to solve. Open the valve a tiny bit day after day till the fish struggle (limit achieved). And more i push the limits doing more injection and get the fish to adapted, in the early days they struggle a lot but after my insistence i saw they were somehow less stress and so i keep push it till i saw it´s time to stop .. up´s it´s better not push that hard. (one shrimp died)
I don´t know if i´m explaining this so well. Hope you get the idea.

Again: Why the plant only melt when it´s raised?

That only brings me to a doubt: How it´s cultivated? I can´t think in another possible mistake.

Isn´t the water the same?
Again: I have put the Checker in 6 diferrent places in the tank in those 6 days, and got yellow. Again. Yelow - not a green lime. It was yellow before the plant introdution, kept yellow and and is still yellow. I never touch the co2! Is at the limit. Joking with the co2 is bringing algae. Someting ii´ve learned in this forum. I pay attention. The Co2 is stabilized so as the light and i do not touch it.

I start to be repetitive..
What PPM value do you think i have in the tank? More than enough dont´you think? At list 30 PPm are there! Do plants really need more than this? Are they able to absorb more? Really ? (i remember reading an article of UPTAKE RATES...) Is here in this forum.

If so than some very good articles we can read in this forum are pretty wrong! We can put as many Co2 as we like in a tank without fish but the plants can not absorb more from a limitation of their own on nutrients. Isn´t that so? So why claiming over and over to co2 default? I honestly don´t follow you.. i would like to, i do but i can´t. I do not agree on that Co2 matter.

I don´t need to put a video to show how distribution is being done. I allready said i see the plants shaking all over around the tank and the Co2 as soon as it got out of the difuser goes from one side to the other side of the tank rigth next to substrate (down there for god sakes where the plant was!!) , and even some remaining is sucked by the inflow cause it´s way to much people.

So.. again and again we are dealing around the Co2.. so by your thoughts how much Co2 does this lady needs?
Is that what Tropica says? No it is not! It´s a medium plant with a medium necessity of Co2.
But if you´re right than Tropica is wrong isn´t that so? The producer says one thing and you´re claiming another! Let´s make some sense.

Who´s right or wrong? If i sell a produt and give a guide (and most important I AM A SPECIALIST so don´t you doubt of what i say...ironicly speaking..) i have to be definitely shure of what i´m proposing to my costumers!

More light always creates a higher nutrient/CO2 uptake demand. Higher uptake fuels more vigorous growth rates.
At some point, the physical limitations of uptake were reached such that adding more light no longer produced higher uptake rates or higher growth rates.

Does these phrases ring a bell?

Best regards
 
Last edited:
Julian,

Could be but and the others? They are definitely gorgeuos. And i planted Staurogyne and Fissidens Fontanus and guess..
They are gowing just fine and beauty. I put the Staurogyne right in the place where it was Amannia.. sorry mate but it can´t be the substrate.

As for the propagator (i remember you suggest me that before) that´s something Tropica should answer. We are not suposed to do that .. as i said before "Mechanical Engineering" to put some plant in a tank. Sorry..

Look, i only bring this subject of MELT cause it´s very very strange indeed. And i´m trying to understand.
And i´m not he only one.

A big hug.
 
Back
Top